Election: A Glorious Truth for all Christians

[DHK]

That says death passed upon all men, it does not say sin passed upon man. Read it again.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

And once again, we see scripture reversed. Romans 5:12 says death (not sin) passed upon all men. Why? Because of Adam's sin? No, it says "for that all have sinned". For means because.

It does not say sin passed upon men. That is very important to notice. If Adam's sin passed upon us (or his death sentence), then God would be punishing us for the sins of our father, which the scriptures say God will never do.

That is a misuse of Scripture. We are not being punished for the sins of our fathers. You are taking that verse out of context. We inherit a sin nature. If there is any one verse that indicates this it is Psalm 51:5 where David says:
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
--There is no stronger language that points to a sin nature than what David expresses here. I have heard some say that this points to David's mother's sin. What sin was that? Was David illegitimate? There was nothing sinful in the birth of David. Rather David was reaching down to his innermost depths of his soul, his moral depravity, and exposing his innate sinfulness which originated right from the very time that he was conceived.
Adam was the father of the human race. The old McGuffey reader put it this way:
"In Adam's fall, we sinned all.

Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

As I said, a misuse of Scripture. If the father of a family steals the child of that family shall not pay for the father's theft. It was a simple law. Don't allegorize it or stretch it beyond its intended use.

Trust me, I know how controversial this sounds. I always thought that man was created absolutely morally perfect, and that when Adam sinned man's nature was changed. I believed this just like most people.

Man's nature did change; God never changes.
Man was made in the likeness and image of God. When he sinned that image was marred. When man gets saved that image is partially restored. We are to strive day by day to "be conformed to the image of Christ." We will never completely be conformed to that image until we meet him; until we have our glorified bodies.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Then one day I realized that Adam and Eve could not have sinned if this were so. God cannot be tempted to do evil. So, if man was created exactly morally perfect like God is, the serpent could have tempted them all he wanted to, but they would never sin.

The angels in heaven sinned. Lucifer sinned and took one third of the angels with him. Is man better than the angels? Of course Adam and Eve could have sinned. That is why they were given a test.
--God cannot be tempted to do evil because he is God. Your teaching sounds like Mormonism. Adam and Eve were not gods. They were humans able to be tempted to do evil. Part of the image in which they were made in, was that they were given an intellect to reason and to choose--a will to choose between right and wrong. They being human can choose wrong and will. God being God, will never choose wrong; and cannot. Man is not God! He was made in his image, but he is not God. There is a difference. They were given a test. They failed. God could never fail; and never does.

So, obviously they were not absolutely perfect when created. Were they good? Yes. They were sinless. They were innocent.

The Bible declares that Lucifer was created perfect. Will you argue with that?

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was created perfect? What happened?
Adam was created perfect? What happened?
God is perfect. What happened? God never sins, and cannot sin. He is God. It is not in his nature to sin. He cannot sin.
Man can sin. Angels can sin. All can sin; but not God.
Your logic holds no water. When creation was over God looked upon it all and said: "It was very good." Did God lie?

You cannot have sin without law. The scriptures define sin as the transgression of law.

Correct, and they did have a law, didn't they. "Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil."

Did Adam and Eve have law? Yes. They had one law, they were not permitted to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And God told them the penalty for breaking this law, death. They broke it, and so death passed upon them. This was a legal sentence, just as earthly judges sentence men to death for certain crimes. The law always prescibes the penalty for a certain crime beforehand.

The penalty was for the law that they broke. The breaking of the law was sin. Being the father of the human race the sin that he committed was a curse, and that curse or sin nature was passed down to every man (or all mankind).

Remember the 60's and all the hippies taking LSD? The law could do nothing, because there were no laws against LSD at the time. They had to write laws before it became illegal. That is how the law works.

In some countries there is no law against smoking either. But hopefully Christians will consider it against God's moral law for it defiles the body. It does it harm, just like LSD did. It doesn't have to be against man's law to be against God's law. Adultery is not against the law any longer either. Does that make it right?

But I don't see a difference in their moral natures. They had the ability to sin before they ate of this tree, they had the ability to sin afterward. They had the ability to do good before they ate of the tree, they had the ability to do good afterward.

Ability is one thing. Rebellion against God is another. They rebelled against God's law, and thus fell. They could have lived forever. They brought a curse upon themselves, the land, the entire human race.

So, I think man was created with the ability to sin, and we also have the ability to sin. But you are not held accountable for sin until you are old enough to understand right and wrong. I do not believe small children are accountable for sin until they mature.

Even an infant is born with a sin nature.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
--Right from the womb they are evil. They are not innocent.

But Romans 5:12 does not say sin passed upon man, it says death passed upon man because all men have sinned. When we get old enough to understand right from wrong and choose to do wrong and sin, then the death sentence passes upon us also. But not because of Adam, but because of our own sin. That is what Romans 5:12 says, read it carefully and you will see.

Death does not pass without a sin nature. Your logic is like saying: the car was in an accident but there was no wrong. The train derailed and killed all aboard, but there was no cause. The house burned down for no reason.
Death, not sin.
Death is a result of sin; and you can't have death without sin. Sin, by its very nature is in the equation. It can't be left out. We have a sin nature. It is passed down inherited. We sin because we have a sin nature, a propensity to sin. We also sin because we want to sin. Both statements are true.

 

[Winman]

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Sorry, but that cannot be so. How could you be a sinner before you existed? This verse is speaking of the mother, not the baby.

Maybe you are not following me. I absolutely agree we are born with the ability to sin we inherited from our father Adam. What I have been arguing is that those that hold that Adam and Eve were created in absolute moral perfection are wrong. Adam and Eve had to have the ability to sin from the moment they were created, or else they could not have sinned when the serpent tempted them.

Isn't that so? If not, please explain how they could have sinned.

No, I am saying that those who believe Adam and Eve were absolutely morally perfect are in error. Man was never equal to God. God cannot be tempted to commit sin. Adam and Eve could and were. So, there was no fall from a state of perfection. There was a change in their legal standing, they went from innocent to guilty.

Where I might disagree is that I do not believe we are born sinners. You must know and understand the law and break it to become a sinner. Until then you are innocent. Babies are innocent, and many scriptures show that. Jesus said we should be like little children to enter heaven. Is heaven full of sinners??

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

So, where is the fall?? They were created with the ability to sin. They had to be. What change was there? They had the ability to sin before, they had the ability to sin afterward. They had the ability to do good before, they had the ability to do good afterward.

So, I do not think you are following me properly.

Man was created upright, that is without sin. That does not mean man cannot sin, there is a huge difference. Man is innocent until he sins, and then becomes a sinner. Little children who do not understand right from wrong cannot be sinners, they are not mature enough to be held accountable. But they surely have the ability to do wrong and often do.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

It is the same with Satan. He was created perfect, that is, without sin. But he had the free will and ability to sin. It was only after he sinned that he became a sinner.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was considered perfect until he sinned.

 

[DHK]

Sorry, but that cannot be so. How could you be a sinner before you existed? This verse is speaking of the mother, not the baby.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Demonstrate it from Scripture. How was the mother sinful. What sin was David pointing to?

 

[Winman]

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Demonstrate it from Scripture. How was the mother sinful. What sin was David pointing to?

Well, the very verse says in sin did my mother conceive me. It is showing the mother as doing the action. I didn't conceive my mother, she conceived me. It is not saying that the act is wrong, it is not. But she is sinful flesh.

I do agree with you that we are born in sinful flesh that we inherited from our parents. We are born with a free will and the ability to choose between right and wrong. Even little infants can do wrong and hit their sibilings or take something that doesn't belong to them. That does not make them a sinner.

You do not become a sinner legally until you know and understand the law and break it. Even unsaved man understands this, we do not hold little children responsible for crimes they sometimes commit. If a four year old boy picks up his father's gun and shoots his sister thinking it is a toy, we don't prosecute the little fellow.

God did not punish the children whose parents rebelled in the wilderness, he allowed them to enter the promised land, because they were too young to understand sin.

This is why the scriptures say we are made upright, the verse I showed last post.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand, unsaved man understands this concept.

 

[Winman]

The scriptures put great importance upon what a man knows. A man is held responsible for what is given to him.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Little children are born with sinful flesh. They have the ability to sin. But they are not held accountable because they are not mature enough to know and understand right from wrong. This is shown repeatedly in the scriptures.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Jesus said if he would not have come and given his words, then men might have some excuse for their sin. But once he came and gave his words, they have no more excuse.

Men are held responsible for what they know, and for what is revealed to them. Little children cannot comprehend right from wrong and so are innocent.

I think were people go wrong is they think of death in only physical terms. The scriptures are speaking in legal terms. Death is a judgement, it is a legal sentencing for a crime committed.

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

 

[OldRegular]

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

response by Winman
Sorry, but that cannot be so. How could you be a sinner before you existed? This verse is speaking of the mother, not the baby.

You are incorrect and DHK is correct. Once David was conceived he existed!

 

[OldRegular]

DHK

Your post #201 is an excellent refutation of Winman" error. Thanks!:thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

You are incorrect and DHK is correct. Once David was conceived he existed!

Thank you. You have shown yourself to always understand scripture in exact reverse of what it really says, so I must be correct.

 

[Winman]

God cannot be tempted to do evil because he is God. Your teaching sounds like Mormonism. Adam and Eve were not gods.

Where are you getting this from DHK? I said in my post that man was never equal to God. I said God cannot be tempted to do evil, while Adam and Eve could and were.

I was arguing there was no moral fall for man because man was never absolutely morally as perfect as God is, else Adam and Eve would not have sinned no matter how much they were tempted.

You have absolutely misrepresented what I have written. It is Calvinists who believe man was created in moral perfection and fell.

I asked if man was created in absolute moral perfection as some here teach, did they have the Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit in them die when they sinned?

So, maybe you didn't read my post carefully, you have completely misrepresented what I wrote.

And I still believe that Psalms 51:5 is speaking of the parents, not the child.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I didn't shape myself, I didn't conceive myself. It is the one's showing action to whom this sin points. As as you have pointed out, many biblical scholars agree with my view, so there is nothing controversial about that.

But regardless, it still doesn't contradict me. I believe all men are born with the ability to sin. We are born flesh.

 

[DHK]

Where are you getting this from DHK? I said in my post that man was never equal to God. I said God cannot be tempted to do evil, while Adam and Eve could and were.

I was arguing there was no moral fall for man because man was never absolutely morally as perfect as God is, else Adam and Eve would not have sinned no matter how much they were tempted.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

What is the meaning of this verse? Is it true or false? If it is true then Adam and Eve were morally perfect as God made them--"very good." God made all things perfect. He does not create imperfection.

You have absolutely misrepresented what I have written. It is Calvinists who believe man was created in moral perfection and fell.

And I believe they are correct in saying so. That is what the fall is all about.

I asked if man was created in absolute moral perfection as some here teach, did they have the Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit in them die when they sinned?

They had the triune Godhead.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
--They could hear the voice of God audibly.
--It is possible that God actually walked with them as in a theophany.
--They had much more than the Holy Spirit.
Your last question makes no sense and is moot.

So, maybe you didn't read my post carefully, you have completely misrepresented what I wrote.

I don't think I have misrepresented you as far as I understand what you have written.

And I still believe that Psalms 51:5 is speaking of the parents, not the child.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I didn't shape myself, I didn't conceive myself. It is the one's showing action to whom this sin points. As as you have pointed out, many biblical scholars agree with my view, so there is nothing controversial about that.

But regardless, it still doesn't contradict me. I believe all men are born with the ability to sin. We are born flesh.

You can believe that the moon is made out of green cheese, and no doubt some do, but where is your evidence for making such a claim.
You have no evidence that David's mother was in sin by giving birth to David. Such an accusation is absurd. Since when is the God-given command to go and multiply and replenish the earth, as God commanded, a sin. Give evidence for your opinion.

 

[SolaSaint]

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Romans 5:19 ESV


What say you?

 

[Skandelon]

I hope you will go into depth on the subject, I for one would be very interested in how your views came to change.

Thank you for your input.

I will start another thread to answer this request.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I will start another thread to answer this request.

Thanks, Skan, and, hey, it's been awhile since I've read much from you.
Looking forward to your thread.

 

[Winman]

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

What is the meaning of this verse? Is it true or false? If it is true then Adam and Eve were morally perfect as God made them--"very good." God made all things perfect. He does not create imperfection.

And I believe they are correct in saying so. That is what the fall is all about.

They had the triune Godhead.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
--They could hear the voice of God audibly.
--It is possible that God actually walked with them as in a theophany.
--They had much more than the Holy Spirit.
Your last question makes no sense and is moot.

I don't think I have misrepresented you as far as I understand what you have written.

You can believe that the moon is made out of green cheese, and no doubt some do, but where is your evidence for making such a claim.
You have no evidence that David's mother was in sin by giving birth to David. Such an accusation is absurd. Since when is the God-given command to go and multiply and replenish the earth, as God commanded, a sin. Give evidence for your opinion.

I agree with you that Adam and Eve were very good. But I am coming to believe this is speaking in a legal sense and not speaking of the physical.

Legally, to become guilty before the law you need two things. You need #1 a law, and #2 you have to have the capacity to understand the difference between good and evil.

Take a little child. Can they do wrong speaking in the physical sense? Yes. But legally they cannot be guilty of sin because they have no concept or comprehension of what is right and wrong.

Adam and Eve were never absolutely morally perfect as God is. They must have had the ability to sin, or else they could not have sinned when the serpent tempted them. God cannot be tempted to sin (James 1:13).

What I am saying is that it might be possible that Adam and Eve did some acts that would later be considered sinful. However, these acts could not be legally sinful because #1 there was no law, and #2 they had no concept of right and wrong.

And if there was a fall, a change in Adam and Eve's nature, it is when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. After eating of this fruit, their eyes were opened and they became conscious of what is good and what is evil. And therefore, now they could be legally guilty. And there was one law in the garden, they were forbidden to eat of this tree. So therefore, they met the two conditions necessary to be legally guilty. There was #1 a law, and they #2 understood their own actions. So therefore the legal sentence of death could justly be placed upon them.

And I see this in Romans 5 where Paul goes into detail about Adam's sin.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

We see here that Paul is speaking of legalities. A person cannot not legally be a sinner unless first there is a law that can be broken. Sin is defined as the transgression of law.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

But there must also be a comprehension of what is right and wrong for a person to be legally guilty of breaking the law.

Adam and Eve did not have this comprehension originally. So, no matter what they did, they would still be legally innocent.

When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that is exactly what happened to them, they now had the ability to understand and know the difference between good and evil. So therefore, they now became legally guilty when they broke the law. And this knowledge is passed down to us, we also are born with the ability to understand good and evil when we reach a certain age of maturity.

So now, when a man transgresses the law, he becomes legally guilty and the legal sentence of death can justly be placed upon him.

So, there was a change that took place in the garden, but it was not that suddenly man had the ability to break the law. Man had that ability from the beginning. But now man had the capacity to understand right from wrong and could therefore be found legally guilty of sin whenever he transgressed a known law.

But knowing good and evil is not an evil thing in itself, God himself has this ability. And that is what God said.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, I don't know if people are following me here. I do not think Adam and Eve suddenly became sinful speaking of ability. They already had this ability to begin with. But legally they were innocent not being able to comprehend right from wrong.

And this concept is understood by law. We do not prosecute children for crimes, or those who are mentally handicapped, or the truly insane. The law recognizes that a person must have the capacity to understand between right and wrong before they can be considered legally guilty of breaking the law.

And I think that is exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 5. He is speaking in legal concepts.

Maybe a new thread should be started on this subject, there is much more to be addressed here, and some of it is complex and difficult to understand.

 

[Winman]

You can believe that the moon is made out of green cheese, and no doubt some do, but where is your evidence for making such a claim.
You have no evidence that David's mother was in sin by giving birth to David. Such an accusation is absurd. Since when is the God-given command to go and multiply and replenish the earth, as God commanded, a sin. Give evidence for your opinion

First, I do not believe the moon is made of green cheese.

Second, you are not comprehending what I meant when I said David's mother conceived him in sin. I am not saying that having children or the act that married couples perform that brings about children is a sin. Neither are.

I am saying that this scripture is speaking of sinful flesh. Flesh itself is sinful, that is, it has the ability to sin. We are all born with the ability to sin. But that does not make us a sinner. To be a sinner, you have to understand right from wrong. So a little child has the ability to sin, but cannot be considered legally guilty of committing sin until they reach the maturity to understand right from wrong.

Now, we all know that Jesus was not born of Joseph, and did not have a sinful nature. The scriptures say he was made in the "likeness" of sinful flesh.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus was not born with sinful flesh. His flesh was a likeness, that is, a picture or resemblance of sinful flesh.

So, David inherited sinful flesh from his father and mother. David was born with the ability to sin. But that did not make him a sinner.

You see, your argument is kind of silly. You are arguing that making children is not sinful (and you are correct), but the act of being formed in the womb, being conceived is.

Neither you or I or anyone else has any say whatsoever in being conceived. It is not an action on our part, so how could it be sinful?

So, this verse is saying David was born with sinful flesh that he inherited from his parents. David did not commit any act whatsoever when he was conceived by his parents, he could hardly be held responsible for something he didn't even do.

 

[AresMan]

Winman, if we do not inherit a "sin nature"--that is, a nature "dead in trespasses and sins" that has a propensity to sin--then is it actually possible for a human being (besides Jesus Christ) to live a sinless life and hence not need salvation?

Yes, Adam and Eve were not "perfect" and had the ability to sin, but they were still innocent. If the Fall had no extra effects on the nature of Adam and Eve and of all their descendants, then is it possible for us to live completely sinless from birth?

If so, why does Scripture say that "all have sinned," "all [are] under sin," and "all are guilty"?

If not, why not?

The way you speak of the (lack of a) "fall" and your insistence on an unaltered "free will" it is as if people today have total reign over their own natures. If doing wrong versus doing right is just a simple choice without unequal "influence" on our nature, then cannot one just simply make all the right choices?

If you say that "by the law is the knowledge of sin" means that the weight and number of laws that God has subjected mankind to makes man unable to keep from sinning by virtue of ignorance of all the law, then would not God be unjust by requiring man to do more than he is capable of doing or knowing? Why could not God just simply keep the tree in the garden as the only law so that all the descendants of Adam and Eve can "choose their own fate" and possibly be sinless?

 

[AresMan]

First, I do not believe the moon is made of green cheese.

Why not? Why don't you just "choose" to believe that. Come on, it would be fun, right? Wait, you cannot believe that, because belief is based upon internal witness not an arbitrary "choice."

Second, you are not comprehending what I meant when I said David's mother conceived him in sin. I am not saying that having children or the act that married couples perform that brings about children is a sin. Neither are.

I am saying that this scripture is speaking of sinful flesh. Flesh itself is sinful, that is, it has the ability to sin. We are all born with the ability to sin. But that does not make us a sinner. To be a sinner, you have to understand right from wrong. So a little child has the ability to sin, but cannot be considered legally guilty of committing sin until they reach the maturity to understand right from wrong.

Is a baby who whines selfishly not sinning? Just because the baby does not discern that its selfish actions are wrong does not mean that they are not wrong. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If I break the speed limit, even if I do not know what it is or that one exists, I am still guilty of breaking it.

Now, we all know that Jesus was not born of Joseph, and did not have a sinful nature. The scriptures say he was made in the "likeness" of sinful flesh.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus was not born with sinful flesh. His flesh was a likeness, that is, a picture or resemblance of sinful flesh.

Jesus' flesh was just as human as anyone else's flesh. The "likeness" of "sinful flesh" still means 100% human flesh, just without sin.

So, David inherited sinful flesh from his father and mother. David was born with the ability to sin. But that did not make him a sinner.

He was born with a sin nature and I bet, as a consequence, he was sinning right from the beginning.

You see, your argument is kind of silly. You are arguing that making children is not sinful (and you are correct), but the act of being formed in the womb, being conceived is.

Neither you or I or anyone else has any say whatsoever in being conceived. It is not an action on our part, so how could it be sinful?

Conception itself is neither sinful on the part of the mother or on the part of the offspring. However, one who is conceived receives a sin nature from conception. One is consequently a sinner from conception because one acts selfishly according to that sin nature. David referred to himself as a sinner in his mother's womb.

So, this verse is saying David was born with sinful flesh that he inherited from his parents. David did not commit any act whatsoever when he was conceived by his parents, he could hardly be held responsible for something he didn't even do.

No, but he was a sinner in his mother's womb and sinned in his mother's womb. From the moment one is conceived one acts according to the propensity to sin.

The "age of accountability" doctrine should not be about man being "guiltless" or "sinless," but about God being gracious to sinners.

 

[Winman]

Why not? Why don't you just "choose" to believe that. Come on, it would be fun, right? Wait, you cannot believe that, because belief is based upon internal witness not an arbitrary "choice."

Well, that is a silly example. I live in the 21st century, man has been to the moon and I know it is not made of cheese. However, if one scientist said it was composed of one type of rock, and another said it was composed of an entirely different type of rock, I would have consider each's arguments and do some study of my own before I would decide who I believed. But which scientist I believed would clearly be a choice on my part, it must be.

Is a baby who whines selfishly not sinning? Just because the baby does not discern that its selfish actions are wrong does not mean that they are not wrong. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If I break the speed limit, even if I do not know what it is or that one exists, I am still guilty of breaking it.

You misunderstand everything I have said. First, a baby whinning is not necessarily sinful, the poor baby may have a bellyache or be cutting teeth. I have 8 children, so I am very familiar with babies and why they sometimes cry.

I was speaking in terms of law (I took 5 different law courses in college, but I am no Perry Mason). While it is true that a baby or infant can do actions that are sinful such as hitting one of their siblings for no reason, a baby or infant cannot be accounted legally guilty of breaking the law. They are not a sinner, they are innocent. And we see this concept in scripture. Because the Israelites sinned in the wilderness, they were not allowed to enter the promised land. But God did allow their children to enter.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

So you see, God himself confirms that little children have no knowledge between good and evil and are not held accountable.

Adam and Eve were innocent because they did not understand right from wrong. They were actually like little children, they even ran around naked and were completely unashamed or embarrassed. They had the ability to do wrong, but could not be legally held accountable because they had no concept or knowledge of what right and wrong is. They did know and understand that they could not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and even understood the penalty, because God had informed them of this. So, for this one action they could be held accountable and were.

In Romans 5, Paul is clearly speaking in legal concepts. Paul was a Pharisee, a lawyer. And this is how he presents his arguments.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Before the law came, men sinned. But because there was no law, there was no transgression of law, and therefore sin could not be imputed to those who sinned. So, to be guilty before the law, there are two conditions. You must #1 have a law, and #2 be capable of understanding the law. This is why we do not prosecute little children, the mentally handicapped, or the truly insane for criminal actions they might commit.

And when Paul speaks of death in Romans 5, he is not speaking of death in a physical sense, he is speaking in a legal sense. Death was the legal penalty for sin. It is a judgement, a condemnation. When he says death passed upon all men, he is saying that as soon as a man sins, the legal penalty of death is placed upon that man. It is the death sentence.

Jesus' flesh was just as human as anyone else's flesh. The "likeness" of "sinful flesh" still means 100% human flesh, just without sin.

Well, the scriptures say Jesus was made in the "likeness" of sinful flesh. We were made in the likeness of God, that doesn't make us God. Likeness means a picture, a representation, a resemblance, but not the actual thing. Strong's Concordance defines likeness in Romans 8:3 as:

1) that which has been made after the likeness of something
a) a figure, image, likeness, representation
b) likeness i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

He was born with a sin nature and I bet, as a consequence, he was sinning right from the beginning.

David was born sinful flesh. He had the ability to sin from day one. That does not legally make him a sinner. You just cannot seem to grasp this. You must understand the difference between right and wrong before you can legally be a sinner. God is a lawgiver, a judge. These concepts are legal, not physical.

Conception itself is neither sinful on the part of the mother or on the part of the offspring. However, one who is conceived receives a sin nature from conception. One is consequently a sinner from conception because one acts selfishly according to that sin nature. David referred to himself as a sinner in his mother's womb.

Yes, we are born with a sinful nature, the ability to sin, but we are not a sinner (legally) until we are mature enough to understand right and wrong.

No, but he was a sinner in his mother's womb and sinned in his mother's womb. From the moment one is conceived one acts according to the propensity to sin.

Same answer I have shown several times.

The "age of accountability" doctrine should not be about man being "guiltless" or "sinless," but about God being gracious to sinners.

Not sure what you are saying here.

 

[DHK]

I agree with you that Adam and Eve were very good. But I am coming to believe this is speaking in a legal sense and not speaking of the physical.

Do you have Biblical evidence for your belief?
The consequence of their belief was death, eventual physical death.

Legally, to become guilty before the law you need two things. You need #1 a law, and #2 you have to have the capacity to understand the difference between good and evil.

They had a law. "Don't eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil." That was the law.
They had the capacity to understand that law. They were intelligent beings--intelligent enough to give names to all the creatures that God had created.

Take a little child. Can they do wrong speaking in the physical sense? Yes. But legally they cannot be guilty of sin because they have no concept or comprehension of what is right and wrong.

Do you have children. I have. They learn at a very young age what is wrong--even at the age of one year old and younger. They understand what is off limits--what they can touch or play with and what they cannot. If they start playing with those things that are off limits they sin. Their conscience tells them so. They already have learned before they reach the age of one that they have done wrong. They have transgressed the law. I John 3:4 defines sin as a transgression of the law. Even a very young child can do that.

Adam and Eve were never absolutely morally perfect as God is. They must have had the ability to sin, or else they could not have sinned when the serpent tempted them. God cannot be tempted to sin (James 1:13).

This is a ridiculous statement to make. It goes against all what the Bible teaches. It means that God could not create a perfect being. It means that God failed in his creation. It means that God is inadequate. Your accusation is against God, not man. This is a terrible accusation to make to say that God cannot create a being with the ability to sin. How can you limit God. Is not God all powerful. You seem to serve a powerless God.

What I am saying is that it might be possible that Adam and Eve did some acts that would later be considered sinful. However, these acts could not be legally sinful because #1 there was no law, and #2 they had no concept of right and wrong.

1. There was a law. That has been established.
2. Why do you limit God? Why lay this wicked accusation against him? God made them in his image--with the ability to know right from wrong. You say that God is powerless to do so. Amazing!!

 

[Winman]

Do you have Biblical evidence for your belief?
The consequence of their belief was death, eventual physical death.

They had a law. "Don't eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil." That was the law.
They had the capacity to understand that law. They were intelligent beings--intelligent enough to give names to all the creatures that God had created.

Do you have children. I have. They learn at a very young age what is wrong--even at the age of one year old and younger. They understand what is off limits--what they can touch or play with and what they cannot. If they start playing with those things that are off limits they sin. Their conscience tells them so. They already have learned before they reach the age of one that they have done wrong. They have transgressed the law. I John 3:4 defines sin as a transgression of the law. Even a very young child can do that.

This is a ridiculous statement to make. It goes against all what the Bible teaches. It means that God could not create a perfect being. It means that God failed in his creation. It means that God is inadequate. Your accusation is against God, not man. This is a terrible accusation to make to say that God cannot create a being with the ability to sin. How can you limit God. Is not God all powerful. You seem to serve a powerless God.

1. There was a law. That has been established.
2. Why do you limit God? Why lay this wicked accusation against him? God made them in his image--with the ability to know right from wrong. You say that God is powerless to do so. Amazing!!

I have scripture that shows man is not accountable until he understands right from wrong.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

When the Israelites rebelled against God in the wilderness, God said they would not be allowed to enter the promised land. But he did not hold the children accountable because they did not know between good and evil.

Yes, Adam and Eve had one single law which they understood. So therefore they could be held accountable for this one law. But if they had done some other sinful act, they would not be accountable because #1 there was no law against it, #2 they had no concept of right or wrong other than the one command and penalty God told them.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

This is what Paul is saying here. Before the law man could commit sinful actions, but without law it could not be imputed to them.

Do I have children? Only 8 of them. And no way did I ever consider any of them sinners when they were little. Did they do wrong things? Yes, they would fight with each other, lose their tempers and many other acts. But they were not accountable because they did not understand the difference between good and bad just as God himself said in Deut 1:39.

What some are failing to understand here is that Paul was speaking of legal concepts in Romans 5. Did he say there was sin in the world from Adam to Moses? Yes. But was that sin imputed? No. Why? Because there was no law.

And I don't know how you can claim that Adam and Eve were absolutely holy and perfect as God is. Man has never been equal to God. God cannot be tempted to sin, but Adam and Eve could and were. This shows they were inferior to God from the very beginning.

Adam and Eve were created good. They were sinless. They had no sin. But they were not God. They could sin. It defies common sense to say they could not. If they were exactly like God, then they could not possibly have sinned when the serpent tempted them.

And it is the same with Satan. He was created perfect or sinless, but he had the ability to sin.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was created perfect. He was not made sinful. But he had free will and the ability to sin and did.

I don't know how you are accusing me of being unscriptural here, it seems to me that you are arguing that man was exactly like God when he was created. Man was never equal to God. If so, man could not have sinned.

Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Or do you think God can sin?