Election and Faith

[Calminian]

...If election is not a predetermined choice by God in eternity past to decide who will be saved. Then what about people who never have an opportunity to hear the word of Christ? Was it their free will choice to reject the Gospel if they never have a chance to hear the Gospel in the first place?

Per this, what I get from Scriptures is that there is no such thing as one who has never heard at least regarding adults (children are a different issue). They have creation externally, and the conscience inwardly, and all men are drawn and enlightened at some point. There is no excuse for anyone who does not seek.

 

[Reformed1689]

Hearing, IOW's, is from God. God grants hearing. The "Word of God" is often a term attributed to the 2nd person of the trinity. Thus, hearing comes from Christ.

This corroborates other passages saying Christ enlightens every man.

There is not a single passage that says Christ enlightens every man.

 

[Reformed1689]

Per this, what I get from Scriptures is that there is no such thing as one who has never heard at least regarding adults (children are a different issue). They have creation externally, and the conscience inwardly, and all men are drawn and enlightened at some point. There is no excuse for anyone who does not seek.

Again, it says nobody is without excuse to know about God. But knowing about God is not knowing the Gospel. Those are two very different things.

 

[Calminian]

There is not a single passage that says Christ enlightens every man.

Really?

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.​

 

[Calminian]

Again, it says nobody is without excuse to know about God. But knowing about God is not knowing the Gospel. Those are two very different things.

Never said otherwise.

 

[Reformed1689]

Really?

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.​

That is not the same sense in which you were trying to argue for enlighten earlier. You are now playing word games. Not every person knows about Christ. That is a fact. Not everyone knows the Gospel, that is FACT.

You are trying to twist words. The fact is not every person knows the Gospel. So please, address the OP rather than going off on nonsense.

 

[Reformed1689]

Never said otherwise.

Then what in the world are you trying to say? Why do you not actually address my OP?

 

[Reformed1689]

But JESUS knows who's who among those people, & I believe He saved those who did right without having never heard of God or His law.

HERESY

 

[Reformed1689]

You miss named the thread. Ignorance always fails
MB

Wow this is the best argument against he OP you got. Goodbye, you are wasting my time.

 

[Reformed1689]

But JESUS knows who's who among those people, & I believe He saved those who did right without having never heard of God or His law.

Romans 10:9-10 states very explicitly you cannot be saved without knowing the Gospel.

 

[utilyan]

There are none that are righteous, none that seek after God.

Thats what the fool says. God never said those words. and maybe there is possibility the FOOL is the one saying it.

Pslams

1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.


Either way you don't have this applying to all mankind......

When the scripture specifies one particular group of naughty Israelites leave it to our grammatically challenged brethren to finally see ALL MEANS ALL when ALL isn't even there.

 

[MB]

Wow this is the best argument against he OP you got. Goodbye, you are wasting my time.

I'm so glad you came to the realization that you can't win. So run and hide.
MB

 

[utilyan]

I can make up a brand new doctrine called TOTAL STUPIDITY and quote all the same out of context verses for Total Depravity and make my doctrine sound just as true.

How? Because you can't build the doctrine of either from scripture alone.

Example everyone sins. I can find a verse for that in 1 John.

Everyone is short of the glory of God, No kidding he is God, a person can never sin their whole life and they are still short of the glory of God.

People misbehave. People do bad things. None of that equates to total depravity and is as good for proving it as TOTAL STUPIDITY.

 

[MB]

Romans 10:9-10 states very explicitly you cannot be saved without knowing the Gospel.

Knowing the gospel means faith. You don't believe you need faith to be saved. You believe you are saved so you can have faith.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Thats what the fool says. God never said those words. and maybe there is possibility the FOOL is the one saying it.

Pslams

1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.


Either way you don't have this applying to all mankind......

When the scripture specifies one particular group of naughty Israelites leave it to our grammatically challenged brethren to finally see ALL MEANS ALL when ALL isn't even there.

Um, I was quoting Romans, which yes, quotes Psalms, but in a different context.

 

[Reformed1689]

Knowing the gospel means faith. You don't believe you need faith to be saved. You believe you are saved so you can have faith.
MB

Knowing the Gospel does not mean faith. That is absurd.

 

[Reformed1689]

I'm so glad you came to the realization that you can't win. So run and hide.
MB

Oh I definitely did not lose. And I'm not going anywhere, just not wasting time on you.

 

[Calminian]

That is not the same sense in which you were trying to argue for enlighten earlier. You are now playing word games. Not every person knows about Christ. That is a fact. Not everyone knows the Gospel, that is FACT.

I never said, every man knows about Christ. You're making a lot of assumptions, trying to read between the lines. I merely said Christ enlightens every man.

You are trying to twist words...

And you're getting extremely defensive. You're trying so hard to win an argument you're not following what I'm saying.

 

[Reformed1689]

I never said, every man knows about Christ. You're making a lot of assumptions, trying to read between the lines. I merely said Christ enlightens every man.

Ok but when you say that in response to what I have been talking about you really confuse things. What am I supposed to think?

And you're getting extremely defensive. You're trying so hard to win an argument you're not following what I'm saying.

Ever thought you aren't being clear? Try again.

 

[Calminian]

Ok but when you say that in response to what I have been talking about you really confuse things. What am I supposed to think?

All I can say is, just because you're confused, doesn't mean I'm being confusing. If someone wants to read things into my words, I can't be responsible for what they infer. I can only be responsible for what I say.