The rest of that post clarify's that statement. What part of the rest of it did you not understand?
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Election And Predestination In Complete Harmony
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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The rest of that post clarify's that statement. What part of the rest of it did you not understand?
I truly don't know the thought you are expressing here. I guess I am just too dense. Don't answer that, lullz...
There was a typo in what you quoted, my fault. I capitalized the "H" in his and should not have. It was a reference to man and not God. Does that help?
Yes God's will is to elect individuals through faith in the truth.
Actual quote: As if to say since God chose some individuals before they had done anything good or bad, that somehow supports the bogus contention that God chooses individuals for salvation before they had done anything good or bad. Ludicrous
Edited quote: As if to say since God chose some individuals before they had done anything good or bad,
Note that the actual idea was edited out so the poster could disparage a non-issue. This is what passes for the defense of the bogus doctrine of unconditional election. Manufactured strawmen are not going to cut it.
Edited quote: As if to say since God chose some individuals before they had done anything good or bad,
Note that the actual idea was edited out so the poster could disparage a non-issue. This is what passes for the defense of the bogus doctrine of unconditional election. Manufactured strawmen are not going to cut it.
Have you neglected to read Ephesians 1?
Ephesians 1:4-5
[4]Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
[5]God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.
Seems you are wrong and the ludicrous claim is yours.
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Yet another verse is trotted out, yet another bogus claim, another fiction.
First, lets start with an accurate translation:
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Was this election individual or corporate? Corporate, we were chosen as those God's Redeemer would redeem. Thus we were chosen in Him. When was Christ chosen? Before creation! And everyone subsequently redeemed is predestined to adoption as sons at Christ's second coming (Romans 8:23).
Why does this election have to be corporate? Because Christ was chosen to be the Redeemer, the Lamb of God, and therefore everyone subsequently redeemed was chosen corporately, in Him.
Thus two separate passages have been cited (the usual suspects) and neither supports the bogus doctrine in the least. OTOH, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, putting our individual election during our lifetime and conditioned upon God crediting our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5; 4:23-24.
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LOL, Van, you have done an exegetical dance and juggling routine to get to your destination.
The word "us" refers first to the Ephesians, but ultimately to God's elect.
When did God choose us? Answer: Before the foundations of the world.
Us...He predestined to be adopted in Christ. (Nothing is said about the second coming and your attempt to connect Romans 8:23 to this passage is horrible exegesis.) The predestination already happened before the foundation of the world.
How does this choosing, this adoption, this predestination take place? According to God's will.
Sadly, you reject God's sovereign choice and predestination and demand instead that you be in control.
The all would be the ones that would be getting saved, those whom are the elect!
The salvation is on an individual basis, the election, for Jesus knows each one of us who are His personally, and he died for us on an individual basis!
Back up to this question Van, how can those whose natural states are an enemy of God surrender to the Lord Jesus and be saved? Unless the Holy Spirit does that work of enabling, non will ever get saved!
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
The nation, children of Israel, Israelites, whatever, were "elect"
The "elect lady" was "elect"
The Angels are elect
Even the Lord Jesus Christ is "elect"! Why? Because he had a purpose; aka a job.
In a nutshell, from my finite understanding, God chose, from the beginning, that the children of God's "election" would be the avenue of spreading the gospel. Election has nothing to do with salvation, none, zero. No.
"Predestination" means that God designed this whole thing so that we who are saved would be completely "adopted children" and "conformed" to the image of Christ. Once we get saved WE have no choice in this matter since we will be conformed willingly by submitting to God (who works everything for our good) or by chastisement of God. SO.....when you get to Heaven, you cannot brag on your doing anything for Jesus nor on how spiritual you ended up which, incidentally, was your "destination" designed by God. The whole process was planned and designed by God. He "masterminded" the Christian life, progressive sancification and all that. That's how my limited understanding understands it.
Yeah God knows who will be saved and all that, because He "inhabiteth eternity". He doesn't just KNOW the future; He's already there. But part of God's design also includes giving us free will to choose or reject Him. Is that a "work"? Absolutely not. Repentance and faith takes place in the heart. Not a work. What about God's sovereignty? Sovereignty isn't in the Bible(at least not the King James). But whatever YOU choose, God alone holds the consequences of that choice and he WILL judge you and I in the end. I would say that's pretty much all powerful right there.
The "elect lady" was "elect"
The Angels are elect
Even the Lord Jesus Christ is "elect"! Why? Because he had a purpose; aka a job.
In a nutshell, from my finite understanding, God chose, from the beginning, that the children of God's "election" would be the avenue of spreading the gospel. Election has nothing to do with salvation, none, zero. No.
"Predestination" means that God designed this whole thing so that we who are saved would be completely "adopted children" and "conformed" to the image of Christ. Once we get saved WE have no choice in this matter since we will be conformed willingly by submitting to God (who works everything for our good) or by chastisement of God. SO.....when you get to Heaven, you cannot brag on your doing anything for Jesus nor on how spiritual you ended up which, incidentally, was your "destination" designed by God. The whole process was planned and designed by God. He "masterminded" the Christian life, progressive sancification and all that. That's how my limited understanding understands it.
Yeah God knows who will be saved and all that, because He "inhabiteth eternity". He doesn't just KNOW the future; He's already there. But part of God's design also includes giving us free will to choose or reject Him. Is that a "work"? Absolutely not. Repentance and faith takes place in the heart. Not a work. What about God's sovereignty? Sovereignty isn't in the Bible(at least not the King James). But whatever YOU choose, God alone holds the consequences of that choice and he WILL judge you and I in the end. I would say that's pretty much all powerful right there.
At least another bogus verse interpretation was not trotted out. But the strawman "us" is discussed as if my view does not include everyone Christ redeems. It does. So a deflection. Ditto for adoption. Unless he is saying we will not be adopted as sons at Christ's second coming. Everyone redeemed is predestined to that future adoption. Finally did anyone indicate that any of this is not the will of God? Nope. So more deflection.
Bottom line, there is absolutely no support anywhere in scripture for unconditional election, but verse after verse can be cited that says we are chosen through faith in the truth, a conditional election. No amount of shooting the messenger will alter these scriptures.
LOL look at the assertions offered with nary a verse of support.
Did anyone say our election for salvation was not on an individual basis? Nope - so more deflection
Next another bogus claim, this time the "T" (total spiritual inability) is trotted out to shift the subject from the "U" since scripture is clear our election is conditional.
But the "T" is also bogus and also has not actual support in scripture. Matthew 23:13 clearly teaches that natural unregenerate men were seeking God, as they were "entering the kingdom of Heaven." So yet another bogus claim, another deflection.
Why are you adding the second coming to this discussion?
We are already positionally seated with Christ in the heavenlies.
Van, your argument is wrong and just a jar full of weak sauce. Go back to the Bible because unconditional election oozes from the scriptures.
Why did God choose to make Adam? Was there a condition?
Why did God choose to cloth Adam and Eve at the fall? Was there a condition? Why did God choose Abraham? Was there a condition? Why did God choose Jacob and not Esau? Was there a condition? Why did God choose Moses? Was there a condition? Why did God choose David? Was there a condition? Why did God choose Jeremiah? Was there a condition? Why did God choose John the Baptist? Was there a condition? Why did God choose Mary? Was there a condition? Why did God choose Paul? Was there a condition? Why did God choose me? Was there a condition?
No there was no condition. There is only God choosing to show grace simply because God is Sovereign and God can choose to do so.
The Bible oozes with unconditional election, yet you hate that truth. Why? What is it that bugs you about God's sovereign right to choose?
The nation, children of Israel, Israelites, whatever, were "elect"
The "elect lady" was "elect"
The Angels are elect
Even the Lord Jesus Christ is "elect"! Why? Because he had a purpose; aka a job.
In a nutshell, from my finite understanding, God chose, from the beginning, that the children of God's "election" would be the avenue of spreading the gospel. Election has nothing to do with salvation, none, zero. No.
"Predestination" means that God designed this whole thing so that we who are saved would be completely "adopted children" and "conformed" to the image of Christ. Once we get saved WE have no choice in this matter since we will be conformed willingly by submitting to God (who works everything for our good) or by chastisement of God. SO.....when you get to Heaven, you cannot brag on your doing anything for Jesus nor on how spiritual you ended up which, incidentally, was your "destination" designed by God. The whole process was planned and designed by God. He "masterminded" the Christian life, progressive sancification and all that. That's how my limited understanding understands it.
Yeah God knows who will be saved and all that, because He "inhabiteth eternity". He doesn't just KNOW the future; He's already there. But part of God's design also includes giving us free will to choose or reject Him. Is that a "work"? Absolutely not. Repentance and faith takes place in the heart. Not a work. What about God's sovereignty? Sovereignty isn't in the Bible(at least not the King James). But whatever YOU choose, God alone holds the consequences of that choice and he WILL judge you and I in the end. I would say that's pretty much all powerful right there.
There are other brethren on here that can debate what you posted... Me!... I let stand what I said!... Grace if you break it down is God's Race... Or God's Family... Question did you choose your natural father to be born in your family?... What makes anyone thing they can choose to belong in God's Eternal Family?... Maybe if you knew how Great Amazing Grace Really is, it would clear up how your limited understanding understands it?... Brother Glen
This sounds like Mormonism...God's preexisting eternal family.There are other brethren on here that can debate what you posted... Me!... I let stand what I said!... Grace if you break it down is God's Race... Or God's Family... Question did you choose your natural father to be born in your family?... What makes anyone thing they can choose to belong in God's Eternal Family?... Maybe if you knew how Great Amazing Grace Really is, it would clear up how your limited understanding understands it?... Brother Glen
Another earthly analogy that's supposed to be taken as doctrine: "Did you choose your earthly father?"
Stop using bogus earthly analogies to trick people into your false doctrine.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
election
noun [ C/U ]
US /ɪˈlek·ʃən/
act or occasion of being chosen for a particular job, esp. by voting:
election Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary
Israel was "elect"
Angels are "elect"
Even Christ Himself is "elect"
It not only is the "will" of God, as stated above, but it is the design of God. However "election" has nothing to do with being chosen for salvation and has everything to do with being chosen for a particular occupation and service.
noun [ C/U ]
US /ɪˈlek·ʃən/
act or occasion of being chosen for a particular job, esp. by voting:
election Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary
Israel was "elect"
Angels are "elect"
Even Christ Himself is "elect"
It not only is the "will" of God, as stated above, but it is the design of God. However "election" has nothing to do with being chosen for salvation and has everything to do with being chosen for a particular occupation and service.
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