Election before Time?

[Van]

apo - from Strong

1) of separation

a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...

b) of separation of a part from the whole

1) where of a whole some part is taken

c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

d) of a state of separation, that is of distance

1) physical, of distance of place

2) temporal, of distance of time

2) of origin

a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken

b) of origin of a cause

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

apo - from Strong

1) of separation

a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...

b) of separation of a part from the whole

1) where of a whole some part is taken

c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

d) of a state of separation, that is of distance

1) physical, of distance of place

2) temporal, of distance of time

2) of origin

a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken

b) of origin of a cause

look at the book on p 10 in dict number 575 'apo'---"before" is right after b/c of (along with several other definitions)--I cant belive I'm looking at a Strongs right now-lol

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

If it makes you feel any better Van—I don’t think finding 1 lexicon/concordance that has ‘before’ as a translation for apo—really disproves your overall idea about Rev 13:8—it just answered your challenge to find one that actually says its possible.

 

[Van]

I provided the lexiconal meaning from strong, before is not there. I expect what you did is find a translation or two that mistranslate it that way as the ESV does. I have looked at two other on line Lexicons and found no support for your contention. In the on line lexicon I looked at it said the NAS translated apo as before one time. I could not find any other possible support for you contention. Apo never means before, it is a logical impossiblity as I explained.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

I provided the lexiconal meaning from strong, before is not there. I expect what you did is find a translation or two that mistranslate it that way as the ESV does. I have looked at two other on line Lexicons and found no support for your contention. In the on line lexicon I looked at it said the NAS translated apo as before one time. I could not find any other possible support for you contention. Apo never means before, it is a logical impossiblity as I explained.

Van I got the book sittn right in front of me & it does say that! I cant help it you dont have books but only online sources--but the fact is in the Greek dict section of Strongs on p 10 #575 apo--has before as 1 of the many possible translations, you can deny it all you want to---but I'm looking right at it--Do u even have a Strongs book? If I wasn't looking at it-how come I'm telling you exact details about where to find it! Go to a library & see for yourself--if it really means that much to you

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

The irony of all this--is that I actually dont disagree with ur translation of Rev 13:8--being 'from'--its just that apo can also mean before, although pro is the normal Greek word for before--its even posible that Strong is wrong or put it in there b/c others felt it could be translated this way--but the point is its possible & all you asked for was 1 source & I gave it to you (even if it is a Strongs which i'll admit I question sometimes). I'll tell you what Van--ask one of your non-refromed friends on the BB who has a Strongs to look for you--then u wont have to just take my word for it! I'll repeat its in the Greek dict section p 10 # 575. (the copyright year is 1995, the Nelson's Comfort print ed--The New Strongs Exhaustive concordance of the Bible)--is this enough info for you? Man I'm not even big on strongs--but it does answer ur challenge.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Here Van I even found it online for you since u dont have the book--
http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=apo

here is a paste & cut of what it says:
575. apo apo' a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):--(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

 

[jbh28]

I keep wondering why Van keeps talking about Greek since he has admitted that he isn't a scholar at it. Stick with English.

 

[Van]

I have stopped wondering why Calvinists question my character and qualifications, they have no viable answer to the truth as scripture presents it. God chose the poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom promised to those who love Him.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Van—u had no problem questioning my character when I accepted your challenge. I even tried to be nice about it—but you all but called me a liar—when I tried to tell you where the evidence was. Nevertheless, I can forgive you as Christ forgave me. I have to go to a Sunday school meeting now--God bless & hope 2 see you in the future.

 

[Van]

As I said, "apo" has been translated as "before" and so if you list of the ways the word is translated you will come up with "before." But that does not support that it means before. I posted the Strong entry for word #575, and it did not include "before" as a meaning, but it did have that the word was translated one time in the NAS as before. I am also aware that the ESV translates apo as before in Rev 13:8, but not in 17:8. Go figure.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

As I said, "apo" has been translated as "before" and so if you list of the ways the word is translated you will come up with "before." But that does not support that it means before. I posted the Strong entry for word #575, and it did not include "before" as a meaning, but it did have that the word was translated one time in the NAS as before. I am also aware that the ESV translates apo as before in Rev 13:8, but not in 17:8. Go figure.

Let me repeat what you said Van—

u said:

I provided the lexiconal meaning from strong, before is not there.

Now let me provide again the website that proves you wrong!
http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strong...on&isindex=apo

u said:

I expect what you did is find a translation or two that mistranslate it that way as the ESV does.

So you call me a liar—b/c I clearly said I looked at Strong’s & gave you the page number & reference number.

u said

I could not find any other possible support for you contention. Apo never means before, it is a logical impossiblity as I explained.

You yourself admitted you found once where the NASB does translate apo as before & I provided the evidence from Strong! So you make a clear inaccurate statement! Van Greeks is not about making logical sense when it comes to word definitions—yet you’ve never taken a class on it so you wouldn’t know---yet you continually act like you do! As I’ve said before I agree with your interpretation of apo in Rev 13:8 (ie from), yet the Greek allows apo to be translated before—yet you said I didn’t know what I was talking about when I made that statement---my question to you Van---do you even have the ability to admit when you are wrong—

 

[jbh28]

As I said, "apo" has been translated as "before" and so if you list of the ways the word is translated you will come up with "before." But that does not support that it means before. I posted the Strong entry for word #575, and it did not include "before" as a meaning, but it did have that the word was translated one time in the NAS as before. I am also aware that the ESV translates apo as before in Rev 13:8, but not in 17:8. Go figure.

You don't know Greek. The fact that you are quoting Strongs shows that you don't know Greek. So please stop talking like you know Greek.

 

[Robert Snow]

good posts allan....I think you have spelled it out clearly.

Van.....you have departed from the truth.....it is almost like listening to harold camping on the radio, to read your posts.
Everyone has tried to help you, but it is getting worse.

Contrary to what you claim, to reject Calvinism is to embrace the truth of the scripture. Calvinism is not taught in the bible at all, it is false!

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

You don't know Greek. The fact that you are quoting Strongs shows that you don't know Greek. So please stop talking like you know Greek.

Yeah I had to quote Strongs too, b/c all my lexicons & Greek text books are at my church office & its all I had at home—it really kinda made feel like a novice in Greek again:tear:, but it did answer Van’s challenge to find just 1 source that ever says apo can mean ‘before’. So at least it was good for something-lol

 

[Van]

Apo when translated as "before" is a mistranslation. It means "out of" and you cannot come out of something before the some exists. Therefore, the use of before as a translation possibility for "apo" is simply a mistranslation. If you look at any version's verse that translated "apo" as before, such as the ESV in Rev. 13:8, and then look at the other literal translations, such as the NASB, HCSB, YLT, etc you will find from or since, not before. There is no support for the contention that apo might mean before.

 

[jbh28]

Apo when translated as "before" is a mistranslation. It means "out of" and you cannot come out of something before the some exists. Therefore, the use of before as a translation possibility for "apo" is simply a mistranslation. If you look at any version's verse that translated "apo" as before, such as the ESV in Rev. 13:8, and then look at the other literal translations, such as the NASB, HCSB, YLT, etc you will find from or since, not before. There is no support for the contention that apo might mean before.

This comes from the guy that has said he's not a scholar at Greek, but he thinks he knows more than almost all the main translators.

 

[webdog]

This comes from the guy that has said he's not a scholar at Greek, but he thinks he knows more than almost all the main translators.

How so as he already shown how the translators have differed? This accusation is getting quite old, btw. You seem to bring this up on every thread he is involved in.

Do you know greek?

 

[jbh28]

How so as he already shown how the translators have differed? This accusation is getting quite old, btw. You seem to bring this up on every thread he is involved in.

Do you know greek?

He said he wasn't a scholar on Greek.

 

[Van]

Thanks Webdog, my character and qualifications are constantly brought up to shift the discussion away from the unbiblical assertions of Calvinism. There want to be able to say apo means before, so they can support Calvinism by redefining the meaning of words.

James 2:5 says God chose the poor to the world, which precludes individual election before time. To avoid this obvious truth, they say the verse does not say they were poor when they were chosen!!! So God chose the poor does not mean God chose the poor. The TULI of Calvinism is false doctrine and cannot be defended by any scripture contextually considered.