Election spoken of in scripture...like this-

He’s like his hero Leighton. Dr. Flowers is stuck on contra-casual and he is stuck on determinism and logical fallacy.

 

Good news is that God Himself gave His viewpoint in Romans 9!

 

You’re close sometimes, but here’s the thing, God’s intervention is not by way of strict Determinism and voiding His divinely designed creature’s attributes, such as sense, reason, intellect and human volition because He has no choice but to force some to be faithful to Him. Nope, “God doesn’t do that” , and this text clearly demonstrates that His volitional creatures do not always respond favorably to God’s providential interventions. In fact, if they did irresistibly respond it would violate the truth that all His are judgment in any logical sense.

 

I just hope you realize that your response consisting of nothing but a personal attack is viewed as pure and rather juvenile logical fallacy.

I’ll take that as a compliment though. Thanks!

BTW, on this personal note, Leighton, he’s aight, but I think he drops logical proof arguments too easily and often has a personality trait of pussyfooting around with many words on subjects like telling a Calvinist, as he would put it, they should be aware that they are so used to looking for certain conclusions in scripture that they are not open to seeing other views while at the same time repeating this (message that in truth they/you probably should hear and consider) in several different ways, over and over – wherein I’d simply just get to the point and tell them they need to remove the blinders and take off the Calvie glasses because they are force fitting their systematic theology into the text. But, I get the impression he seems to feel he is more righteous for his softer, loooong, almost passive aggressive approach in saying the same thing, - except when he doesn’t. I’ve told him that I can appreciate his patience at times though. He’s a smart guy, a great thinker and more scholarly than I could ever be and I like him but to be a hero of mine he’d have to at least occasionally stand up and boldly tell it like it is without all the pussyfooting around and especially doing away with the sense I get that he condemns others if they have a less sensitive approach than him. ...which all just amounts to difference in perspective on how people are motivated to react and rather or not one caters to it.

 

I think this fits in with the theme of the thread...Election....as according to Calvinists it's supposed to connect to God imparting irresistible grace. If that be the case why would Paul say in 2 Cor 5:20

"We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.(NIV)


So we are Christ's ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, "Come back to God!" (NLT)

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. (NAS)

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. (KJV)

So Paul is saying he speaks for God (Christ) when he uses terms such as I implore you (to be saved) I plead with you, I beg you and I beseech you! What else could be said except God is demonstrating they have the free will to choose? Would God even need to plead, implore, beg or beseech if they weren't given a choice and if it was just going to be irresistible grace anyway? I'd suggest this causes major damage to a Calvinists position and quite frankly can't see you have anyway out of it.

 

Nah, I mean force fitting strict deterministic viewpoints in order to hold up one's systematic theology which will unavoidably logically take them down the road to theological fatalism.

 

I’ll stick to logical conclusions on a person’s views rather than be drawn into whatever you are looking for by trying to direct my arguments toward the person. Thanks.

 

The problem here is that you're completely discounting what the text says. It isn't as if 7,000 had saved themselves for God; God had saved 7,000 for Himself. Now, it may be possible to discuss why all but 7,000 believed, but the text is absolutely clear as to why those 7,000 did--it was God's doing. God insured (or determined) to save these people.

The Archangel

 

Hold on here a minute. Read the whole passage and not one mere verse. In 1 Kings 19 Elijah is fearing for his life believing he was going to be killed by Jezebel and Ahab. God speaks to him and reveals things were going to change and to go back and anoint Jeru King over Israel. God comforts him with the fact that he had preserved or reserved 7,000 Israelite (and the important part) who had not bowed their knees to Baal.

In other words not everyone has been persecuted to death as Elijah was thinking and God wanted him to know that. There is no way one can force an interpretation that God set up for these people to be saved and others not and I'm taking about for eternal life salvation. These 7,000 were faithful and loyal to God as they did not bow their knew to Baal.....and God was going for his own sovereign purposed preserve these individuals from being physically killed.

It has nothing to do with God having already decided all these people would be saved spiritually speaking by some irresistible grace. There are times in God's sovereignty where he'll allow his children to become martyrs. There are other times he curtails it or stops it as in Saul before Paul....he was persecuting Christians and God stepped in and as far as Paul's measure of persecuting he was doing it was curtailed. So God wasn't going to allow all the faithful who hadn't worshiped Baal to be killed. He reserved them and protected them until the new King would take control. Not choosing for eternal life spiritual salvation! Such would be a forced interpretation without merit.

 

The same way that free willers takes the salvation plan of God, and end up making us the final say on salvation?

 

Do you see 5 point Calvinists as being "strict determinants?"

 

Galatians 1:1
Philippians 2:13
Romans 8
I was just suggesting that the scriptures speak of foreknowledge in a manner consistent with Calvinistic view on Election, and not as those holding to a free will Grace viewpoint see it!

 

The same process of Electing out individual Jews and Gentiles to be called and set apart for His use would be the same as what he did back then in national Israel, correct?

 

Hey, I like that word "Determinants" don't think I've ever used it before, will have to keep it in mind, ...but as for your question, ...you don't want know! ...and I think you should probably respect Icon's request to stay on topic.

Well, as for me, I got an inquiry about not having completed some documentation on a patient and I couldn't really tell them I was too bust playing on the Baptist Board, so...