You offer no scripture. ..just what you say...
This is about biblical election...one or two sentence tweets kill threads...running up the page count, and offering no BIBLICAL teaching.
here is the op.....
Election spoken of in scripture.
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Election spoken of in scripture...like this-
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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This is about biblical election...one or two sentence tweets kill threads...running up the page count, and offering no BIBLICAL teaching.
here is the op.....
Election spoken of in scripture.
Y1...here are your tweets here....without scripture; READ Through this list of all your tweets...if anyone read these they would have little to no idea what the topic was....you do this all the time...it detracts from the discussion at hand
1]Calvinism actually promotes the glory of the God of the Bible , as we in detail show that from start to its finish, salvation is totally of the Lord!
2]Do any of us deserve to be saved? Do we all deserve hell?
3]God also is Holy, and must judge sin and evil, which all of us were, right?
4]More like God having to do what must be done because he is Holy....
5]God still shows His love even when he chooses not to save all sinners, correct?
6]Is God allowed then to have mercy upon whosoever He chooses to or not?
7]The gospel message is to be given forth to all, and those whom the Lord have enabled to respond shall indeed turn to Jesus and be saved.
8]The problem lies not with God in our response, but within ourselves....
9]God honors the "free will choice" of sinners to keep on rejecting jesus Christ!
10]Can the creation argue with his creator that God is not doing what would be the right thing? can finite and limited man actually presume upon an eternal all knowing unlimited being?
11]Was God right to exercise Judgement upon Sodom then, even though was not "loving them" at that time?
12]There are times when God has to act based upon other attributes than Love....
13]Paul stated plainly that the natural man, the unsaved sinner, cannot receive the things of God by Himself, is the Gospel a thing from God?
14]Paul was addressing saved and unsaved persons, and His point was that the unsaved person can read the bible, hear the sermon, but in their lost state cannot by themselves accept or even know its spiritual meaning!
15]Does God love all persons exactly the same fashion?
16]God has chosen to love His own in a Covenant relationship way, not same for all!
17]It still is, as the point was that the Lord chooses to save His own Covenant people, that he elects them based upn knowing them in a special way that he does not have with the lost.
NOT ONE SCRIPTURE VERSE....YOU MENTION CHOOSE 1X.....
Unconditional Election by R.C. Sproul
Lecture 9, Unconditional Election:
Upon what condition did God elect sinners to salvation? Was your positive choice for the gospel the basis for your election before the foundation of the world? Was God’s choice based on your foreseen choice? Simply put, did God choose you because you first chose Him? Would God be unfair if He chose some to salvation and not others? In this message, Dr. Sproul helps us understand this hard, yet biblical doctrine as he looks at “Unconditional Election.”
Unconditional Election – compiled by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon | A Puritan's Mind
The “Elect” and its meaning.
ἐκλεκτός eklektós; • 1) the act of picking out, choosing 1a) of the act of God’s will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons 1b) the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone 2) a thing or person chosen 2a) of persons: God’s elect
TDNT – 4:181,505; adj • AV – elect 16, chosen 7; 23 • 1) picked out, chosen 1a) chosen by God, 1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ 1a1a) Christians are called “chosen or elect” of God 1a2) the Messiah in called “elect”, as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable 1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians ἐκλεκτός {ek-lek-tos’} • from 1586; TDNT – 4:181,505; adj • AV – elect 16, chosen 7; 23 • 1) picked out, chosen 1a) chosen by God, 1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ 1a1a) Christians are called “chosen or elect” of God 1a2) the Messiah in called “elect”, as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable 1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
Matt. 24:22 Matt. 24:24 Matt. 24:31 Mk. 13:20 Mk. 13:22 Mk. 13:27 2 Tim. 2:10 Acts 9:15 Rom. 9:11 Rom. 11:5 Rom. 11:7Rom. 11:28 1 Thess. 1:4 2 Pet. 1:10
KJV Mark 13:27, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Some Puritan Quotes on Unconditional Election
“Moreover, as God respects no persons, so He respects no conditions upon which He gives salvation to us.”
Dr. Thomas Goodwin
“It is absurd to think that anything in us could have the least influence upon our election. Some say that God did foresee that such persons would believe, and therefore did choose them; so they would make the business of salvation to depend upon something in us. Whereas God does not choose us FOR faith, but TO faith. “He hath chosen us, that we should be holy,” (Ephesians 1:4), not because we would be holy, but that we might be holy.”
Rev. Thomas Watson
“Let us then ascribe the whole work of grace to the pleasure of God’s Will. God did not choose us because we were worthy, but by choosing us He makes us worthy.”
Rev. Thomas Watson
“God is hidden. But He lets those who seek Him find Him.” Pascal
“Acknowledge that God wished to hide Himself. If there were only one religion, God would be clearly evidenced. Likewise, if there were no martyrs except in our own faith. But God being thus hidden, any religion that does not say that God is hidden is not true, and any religion that does not explain why this is so, does not truly instruct. But ours does all this. “Verily Thou art a God that hides Thyself.” (Isaiah 45:15)”
Blaise Pascal
“If the foreknowledge of God is eternal, it is necessary that the decree upon which it is founded should also be eternal…All things were decreed of God by an eternal and unchangeable counsel; hence they cannot but take place in the appointed time; otherwise the counsel of God would be changed, which the Scriptures declare to be impossible, Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:9.” Dr. Francis Turretin
“The orthodox maintain that the good pleasure alone (of God) has place and think that no other cause can either be given or rightly sought [for election].” Dr. Francis Turretin
“The good pleasure of God is an act of the divine will freely and effectively determining all things.” Dr. William Ames
“In whatever God wills He is universally effectual; he is not hindered or frustrated in obtaining what He wills. For if he should properly will anything and not attain it he would not be wholly perfect and blessed.” Dr. William Ames
“The application of redemption to some men and not to all and the manifest difference which, therefore, arises between men in the dispensation of grace gives to us a first intimation of God’s predestination of men.” Dr. William Ames
Bible Verse:
“I will be sanctified by those that draw near to me…” (Lev. 10:3).
Lecture 9, Unconditional Election:
Upon what condition did God elect sinners to salvation? Was your positive choice for the gospel the basis for your election before the foundation of the world? Was God’s choice based on your foreseen choice? Simply put, did God choose you because you first chose Him? Would God be unfair if He chose some to salvation and not others? In this message, Dr. Sproul helps us understand this hard, yet biblical doctrine as he looks at “Unconditional Election.”
Unconditional Election – compiled by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon | A Puritan's Mind
The “Elect” and its meaning.
ἐκλεκτός eklektós; • 1) the act of picking out, choosing 1a) of the act of God’s will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons 1b) the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone 2) a thing or person chosen 2a) of persons: God’s elect
TDNT – 4:181,505; adj • AV – elect 16, chosen 7; 23 • 1) picked out, chosen 1a) chosen by God, 1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ 1a1a) Christians are called “chosen or elect” of God 1a2) the Messiah in called “elect”, as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable 1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians ἐκλεκτός {ek-lek-tos’} • from 1586; TDNT – 4:181,505; adj • AV – elect 16, chosen 7; 23 • 1) picked out, chosen 1a) chosen by God, 1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ 1a1a) Christians are called “chosen or elect” of God 1a2) the Messiah in called “elect”, as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable 1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
Matt. 24:22 Matt. 24:24 Matt. 24:31 Mk. 13:20 Mk. 13:22 Mk. 13:27 2 Tim. 2:10 Acts 9:15 Rom. 9:11 Rom. 11:5 Rom. 11:7Rom. 11:28 1 Thess. 1:4 2 Pet. 1:10
KJV Mark 13:27, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Some Puritan Quotes on Unconditional Election
“Moreover, as God respects no persons, so He respects no conditions upon which He gives salvation to us.”
Dr. Thomas Goodwin
“It is absurd to think that anything in us could have the least influence upon our election. Some say that God did foresee that such persons would believe, and therefore did choose them; so they would make the business of salvation to depend upon something in us. Whereas God does not choose us FOR faith, but TO faith. “He hath chosen us, that we should be holy,” (Ephesians 1:4), not because we would be holy, but that we might be holy.”
Rev. Thomas Watson
“Let us then ascribe the whole work of grace to the pleasure of God’s Will. God did not choose us because we were worthy, but by choosing us He makes us worthy.”
Rev. Thomas Watson
“God is hidden. But He lets those who seek Him find Him.” Pascal
“Acknowledge that God wished to hide Himself. If there were only one religion, God would be clearly evidenced. Likewise, if there were no martyrs except in our own faith. But God being thus hidden, any religion that does not say that God is hidden is not true, and any religion that does not explain why this is so, does not truly instruct. But ours does all this. “Verily Thou art a God that hides Thyself.” (Isaiah 45:15)”
Blaise Pascal
“If the foreknowledge of God is eternal, it is necessary that the decree upon which it is founded should also be eternal…All things were decreed of God by an eternal and unchangeable counsel; hence they cannot but take place in the appointed time; otherwise the counsel of God would be changed, which the Scriptures declare to be impossible, Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:9.” Dr. Francis Turretin
“The orthodox maintain that the good pleasure alone (of God) has place and think that no other cause can either be given or rightly sought [for election].” Dr. Francis Turretin
“The good pleasure of God is an act of the divine will freely and effectively determining all things.” Dr. William Ames
“In whatever God wills He is universally effectual; he is not hindered or frustrated in obtaining what He wills. For if he should properly will anything and not attain it he would not be wholly perfect and blessed.” Dr. William Ames
“The application of redemption to some men and not to all and the manifest difference which, therefore, arises between men in the dispensation of grace gives to us a first intimation of God’s predestination of men.” Dr. William Ames
Bible Verse:
“I will be sanctified by those that draw near to me…” (Lev. 10:3).
Rockson
Active Member
Icon's Statement : Here is how Jesus actually answered it, notice it is not based on your speculation ...but clear language so there is no need to wonder about it....
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
My Response: Icon does any of that do away with the fact that God the Father worked through Jesus to bring all men 100 % of humanity to Christ? The call to the sinner is from the Father as well as Christ. Come home! If they resist that or reject that God the Father can't give them over to Jesus. And no disrespect but you still haven't answered regardless your claims to the contrary how Jesus said he was willing to save and gather and yet irresistible grace was not employed. If it was God's will to save them they would have been saved if irresistible grace was true. Apparently is isn't. God's grace therefore isn't forced it's rather offered in LOVE with freedom to choose, resist, reject or receive. I'd contend that's pretty obvious. I'd encourage you to give it some thought.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
My Response: Icon does any of that do away with the fact that God the Father worked through Jesus to bring all men 100 % of humanity to Christ? The call to the sinner is from the Father as well as Christ. Come home! If they resist that or reject that God the Father can't give them over to Jesus. And no disrespect but you still haven't answered regardless your claims to the contrary how Jesus said he was willing to save and gather and yet irresistible grace was not employed. If it was God's will to save them they would have been saved if irresistible grace was true. Apparently is isn't. God's grace therefore isn't forced it's rather offered in LOVE with freedom to choose, resist, reject or receive. I'd contend that's pretty obvious. I'd encourage you to give it some thought.
"Rockson,
jn6:37-44
God has not at anytime purposed to save 100% of men...He is not now drawing every single person to Christ.....this is easily proven.
This unbiblical statement is not found in scripture...all men are not belonging to Christ. A person cannot "come home" if he is not yet adopted.
The biblical testimony is they were given to Christ before the world was...it is clear you are not reading the material I am providing to you...you will not come to truth until you read that which teaches it...for example...explain these texts to us;
2tim1
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Titus 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1]...Rockson... you do not have to worry about offending me....I do not have thin skin....speak direct when you agree or disagree...i can handle it. If I can give it out, I can take it when it comes around.
2] I have answered you but you totally missed it. When i posted that bit from the 1689 confession of faith that you ignored...it contains all the answers you need....read it slowly...phrase by phrase
Effectually calling only happens to those elected by God...a great multitude...each and everyone will be saved.
3] Jesus died a covenant death for the elect...He came and accomplished it, not one will be lost.
4] Jesus died an actual death for actual persons...not a potential death.
5]Unless you get a handle on effectual calling...you will never understand this.
Correct....but it clearly was not God's will to save all of them at all....the text does not address if any of those were saved after pentecost, or not...so I do not speculate.
Again...if you read the confession with any understanding it would have answered your own question.
jn6:37-44
God has not at anytime purposed to save 100% of men...He is not now drawing every single person to Christ.....this is easily proven.
This unbiblical statement is not found in scripture...all men are not belonging to Christ. A person cannot "come home" if he is not yet adopted.
The biblical testimony is they were given to Christ before the world was...it is clear you are not reading the material I am providing to you...you will not come to truth until you read that which teaches it...for example...explain these texts to us;
2tim1
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Titus 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
.
1]...Rockson... you do not have to worry about offending me....I do not have thin skin....speak direct when you agree or disagree...i can handle it. If I can give it out, I can take it when it comes around.
2] I have answered you but you totally missed it. When i posted that bit from the 1689 confession of faith that you ignored...it contains all the answers you need....read it slowly...phrase by phrase
Effectually calling only happens to those elected by God...a great multitude...each and everyone will be saved.
3] Jesus died a covenant death for the elect...He came and accomplished it, not one will be lost.
4] Jesus died an actual death for actual persons...not a potential death.
5]Unless you get a handle on effectual calling...you will never understand this.
Correct....but it clearly was not God's will to save all of them at all....the text does not address if any of those were saved after pentecost, or not...so I do not speculate.
.
Again...if you read the confession with any understanding it would have answered your own question.
Again...if you address this again...quote the portion of the confessional statement that was offered and we can discuss it.
What makes you think that biblical calvinists have not examined and thought of all of these passages?
Jesus stated to us in John 10:27-30 that only His own sheep can and will hear His voice, and the rest will not be hearing Him, so how can there be all called to be now saved?
Thanks for offering those solid verses!
Rockson
Active Member
For the reason that you have a bigger picture of things that God sees above the realm of time as compared to the temporal moments of our present that God works in as well where he demonstrates he does all things that should be done to be fair and just. About the first part of what you were saying I've seen Calvinists talk about Jesus sheep are sheep and everything is settled.
That's not even so. We don't see anywhere that it says those not his sheep will forever stay that way. That they can't make a decision and choice outside of Calvinistic irresistible grace to do so. Didn't Jesus clearly tell these religious leaders they were not his sheep? Sure he did as we can see in verse "But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said unto you" vs 26 Every Calvinist in the world would be exclaiming THAT'S RIGHT! They are not his sheep and because they are not his sheep such is settled forever! BUT...hold on now. Let's continue on in the passage. Jesus says some other things and they finally were going to stone him and Jesus closed off by saying,
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. John 10:37-38
Jesus had already told them they were not his sheep! vs 26 If Jesus said person A or B are not his sheep then according to Calvinists that settles it! Interesting though in vs 37-38 of whom he already told them they weren't his sheep he told them that they should believe! Make a decision to do so Jesus said! If I had not done all the miracles that I did then sure you have reason not to believe. But because I've done them....BELIEVE!
Did he not exhort them to believe? Yes! Couldn't they do what Jesus told them to do? Most certainly! Well he's got to do something to help them believe!( you may say) HE DID! The miracles! THAT'S WHAT HE SAID! Well where is irresistible grace? It doesn't exist. I'm sorry but it doesn't. This was a great emotional appeal of Jesus towards them to do everything possible to get them to turn. There was nothing fake nor phony about it. He longed for them to believe! Such is why he wept over the fate of Jerusalem to come. It was similar to Paul the Apostle who stated he wished he could die in the place of his people if they could be spared. The thing is though...Jesus DID. He died so THEY yes THEY could be saved! If only they would have believed.
Jesus calls us those not saved as being the children of Satan, so why would thwey even desire to be saved?For the reason that you have a bigger picture of things that God sees above the realm of time as compared to the temporal moments of our present that God works in as well where he demonstrates he does all things that should be done to be fair and just. About the first part of what you were saying I've seen Calvinists talk about Jesus sheep are sheep and everything is settled.
That's not even so. We don't see anywhere that it says those not his sheep will forever stay that way. That they can't make a decision and choice outside of Calvinistic irresistible grace to do so. Didn't Jesus clearly tell these religious leaders they were not his sheep? Sure he did as we can see in verse "But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said unto you" vs 26 Every Calvinist in the world would be exclaiming THAT'S RIGHT! They are not his sheep and because they are not his sheep such is settled forever! BUT...hold on now. Let's continue on in the passage. Jesus says some other things and they finally were going to stone him and Jesus closed off by saying,
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. John 10:37-38
Jesus had already told them they were not his sheep! vs 26 If Jesus said person A or B are not his sheep then according to Calvinists that settles it! Interesting though in vs 37-38 of whom he already told them they weren't his sheep he told them that they should believe! Make a decision to do so Jesus said! If I had not done all the miracles that I did then sure you have reason not to believe. But because I've done them....BELIEVE!
Did he not exhort them to believe? Yes! Couldn't they do what Jesus told them to do? Most certainly! Well he's got to do something to help them believe!( you may say) HE DID! The miracles! THAT'S WHAT HE SAID! Well where is irresistible grace? It doesn't exist. I'm sorry but it doesn't. This was a great emotional appeal of Jesus towards them to do everything possible to get them to turn. There was nothing fake nor phony about it. He longed for them to believe! Such is why he wept over the fate of Jerusalem to come. It was similar to Paul the Apostle who stated he wished he could die in the place of his people if they could be spared. The thing is though...Jesus DID. He died so THEY yes THEY could be saved! If only they would have believed.
And now he’s back to offering zero scriptures.
John 8:44
But you need to not just say things with no scriptures being offered and then in another post post solely a verse. Use both together.
Rockson
Active Member
Not obvious Yeshua? To reveal their true position in the realm of the spirit. To set off an alarm bell WAKE UP! All is not well! You are not children of God! (as they thought they were) Paul as well see did similar in Acts 13:10.
And said, O full of all deceit and all mischief, you child of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? Acts 13:10
Have a good look dear friends here (as I know I have many) Haha...AT what Paul asked....."Will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" Not a possibility that the one deemed a child of Satan had the possibility of ceasing to pervert God's way? If not....why did he say it?
Rockson
Active Member
And now he's back? Creates a wonderful feeling like, "Look what the cat just dragged in!" LOL!!! On the more serious note...I did put scriptures down...John 10:26 & John 10:37:38. Even with one scripture it's sufficient to launch a discussion. So how about it friends? What about John 10:37-38??
Rockson
Active Member
So you're applying this to me claiming non-Calvinists are children of the devil? I've never applied such a designation to you people BUT fair enough. Persecute away! Jesus said don't be surprise if they kill you thinking they're doing God a favor. Sad though. I was even starting to believe that when Calvinists would claim we're all dear precious brethren they were sincere, but maybe some of them are and some of them aren't.
The point of that is that satan is the spiritual Father of all who are lost, so unless God Himself intervenes, as calvinists teach, they will stay lost in darkness!Not obvious Yeshua? To reveal their true position in the realm of the spirit. To set off an alarm bell WAKE UP! All is not well! You are not children of God! (as they thought they were) Paul as well see did similar in Acts 13:10.
And said, O full of all deceit and all mischief, you child of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? Acts 13:10
Have a good look dear friends here (as I know I have many) Haha...AT what Paul asked....."Will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" Not a possibility that the one deemed a child of Satan had the possibility of ceasing to pervert God's way? If not....why did he say it?
I am saying that those who are LOST are children of the Devil, NOT non Calvinists!So you're applying this to me claiming non-Calvinists are children of the devil? I've never applied such a designation to you people BUT fair enough. Persecute away! Jesus said don't be surprise if they kill you thinking they're doing God a favor. Sad though. I was even starting to believe that when Calvinists would claim we're all dear precious brethren they were sincere, but maybe some of them are and some of them aren't.
If true, you should be paying closer attention to the subject in which you quote before saying it!
Rockson
Active Member
You'll notice however if we look at vs 9 the verse right before which I hadn't put down we read,
Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Acts 13:9-10
That term "filled with the Holy Spirit" is a special unction given at particular times of ministry as God wills to do or accomplish a certain thing. Yes Paul and all believers are filled with the Spirit in carrying out general preaching but instances like the above is where God steps in in unique way it's equivalent to it being God himself expressing through Paul the most clear revelation as it pertains to an individual.
God therefore in the most precise way tells Elymas he is a child of the devil (and other things) but then the question is asked will he never stop perverting things which were good. Seeing it was an exact question from God himself it seems he was leaving the choice to repent up to Elymas. If God was doing irresistible grace he would never have asked the question. He would have known it's not possible for Elymas to do anything different then and in the future if Calvinistic thinking were true. Elymas then became blind for a period of time not even able to see the light and people had to take him by the hand and lead him away.
"Rockson,
All men everywhere are commanded to repent.
You do not understand the teaching at all. These posts make no sense...
All men everywhere are commanded to repent.
You do not understand the teaching at all. These posts make no sense...
- Status