...ah, this is true....
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Entering or invited?
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
It is clear that you don't even understand what you write! You say on the one hand, "people do not accept the invitation - they are not WILLING to come"; and then , on the other hand, "This is the glory of Irresistible Grace"! If this grace for salvation is NOT ACCEPTED, as in REJECTED, then HOW can it be called "Irresistible"? do you guys really understand the English language? The one cancels out the other!
With much respect, I'm afraid it is you who appear not to understand, though I rather think that you know enough theology to comprehend the difference between the Universal Call and the Particular Call.
The Gospel call goes out to everyone, but people do not receive it savingly unless unless it comes with irresistible power.
Look, Lazarus is dead; he's been dead for quite some time. We can call on lazarus to come back to life; we can tell him how much better it would be if he were alive. We can point out to him the severe disadvatages of b
Your evident lack of ability to grasp truth is on display yet again...
Your posts are borderline incoherent in that they depart from any scriptural base.
I agree that all men have been invited, and that Christ died to save "the Bride" (or lay down His life for His sheep").
I am curious if you are able to articulate the "invitiation" to all men (without exception) against the effective call to those who will believe (i.e , what part of Christ's work is for everybody and what part is for the elect prior to them believing?).
While waiting on @Martin Marprelate I'd like to pose to others, particularly Calvinists who view a general and particular call.
How is this general call or invitation accomplished in relation to the cross? (If Christ's death accomplished salvation or forgiveness of sins for only the elect, what part of Christ's work made it possible for all to be saved?).
How is this general call or invitation accomplished in relation to the cross? (If Christ's death accomplished salvation or forgiveness of sins for only the elect, what part of Christ's work made it possible for all to be saved?).
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Jon. I can tell you ahead of time that Calvinists are all over the place on this. Christ's death accomplished salvation for the elect when he died in the sense that what God ordains WILL come to pass. An "elect" person is lost until he comes to Christ by faith. But he will do this. And he will do this because of the work of the Holy Spirit. God is not sitting somewhere saying to Jesus "well, let's hope now that at least some of these people come by faith". This business of election is God's business. But numerous scriptures support it. God has shown it to us in a glimpse into his purpose but he has not given us warrant to speculate on who's in or out. So what does it look like to us?
The general call or invitation goes out to everyone who is within the hearing of it. In other words, everyone who hears the gospel or the word of God is invited to come by this general call. And it is REAL. Any one of those who hear this and come to Christ by faith will be saved. Were they elect? Yes, looking back - but that's as far as we can speculate.
Now, we believe that men are not going to come to Christ by faith without the Holy Spirits direct involvement. You must be born again, regenerated, enlightened, and other terms too. This is the effectual call. What does this look like to us? It looks like the person comes under conviction and has a desire to come to Christ and see's his own sin and the value of Christ. This is a work of the Spirit and you are passive in it.
You are not saved from eternity or from the time Christ died on the cross.
Faith IS a means or a condition.
When you talk about "salvation" for someone who lives a time after coming to Christ then sincere obedience, love, good works, and pursuit of a holy life are requirements for salvation.
Half the Calvinists on here will completely freak out over this.
The general call or invitation goes out to everyone who is within the hearing of it. In other words, everyone who hears the gospel or the word of God is invited to come by this general call. And it is REAL. Any one of those who hear this and come to Christ by faith will be saved. Were they elect? Yes, looking back - but that's as far as we can speculate.
Now, we believe that men are not going to come to Christ by faith without the Holy Spirits direct involvement. You must be born again, regenerated, enlightened, and other terms too. This is the effectual call. What does this look like to us? It looks like the person comes under conviction and has a desire to come to Christ and see's his own sin and the value of Christ. This is a work of the Spirit and you are passive in it.
You are not saved from eternity or from the time Christ died on the cross.
Faith IS a means or a condition.
When you talk about "salvation" for someone who lives a time after coming to Christ then sincere obedience, love, good works, and pursuit of a holy life are requirements for salvation.
Half the Calvinists on here will completely freak out over this.
I agree. I was a Calvinist for a long time. I still affirm the truths that led me to Calvinism, but departed over other issues.
Anyway, I have learned that Calvinism, like any other view, is not a one size fits all thing. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your position. We have much in common.
I am interested how @Martin Marprelate views this issue as well.
It is good to look at different positions, even if they are similar. Sometimes people can't answer for their faith and conversation may be a benefit. Other times views may need tweaking. And if nothing else, people can learn about others.
I do you guys really undersand the English language? The one cancels out the other!
NO - we speak Americian
This does not make any sense!
True -a parable is an illustration -
But what is the part about "lies"
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
"I conclude with an exhortation to come to Christ, and accept of salvation in this way. You are invited to come to Christ, heartily to close with him, and trust in him for salvation: and if you do, you shall have the benefit of this glorious contrivance. .....God has already contrived everything that is needful for your salvation; and there is nothing wanting but your consent. ......Salvation is already brought to your door; and the Savior stands, knocks, and calls that you would open to him, that he might bring it in to you. There remains nothing but your consent. All the difficulty now remaining is with your own heart. If you perish now, it must be wholly at your door. It must be because you would not come to Christ that you might have life; and because you virtually choose death rather than life........"
(Jonathan Edwards, Wisdom Displayed in Salvation, sect.XI Exhortation to Come to Christ")
I cut out parts for brevity but if you ask me, this is how you do it and it sounds an awful lot like an old fashioned Baptist preacher. And Edwards was definitely as much of a Calvinist as you can be. Agreeing with the TULIP or believing in God's meticulous sovereignty of everything doesn't mean you don't witness and preach with everything you have and with all the means you have.
Jonathan Edwards was possibly the most brilliant American that has ever lived, and very earnest in his desire that others come to an understanding of the gift of Salvation.
Jon, should I answer knowing you already know? I will for those reading.
l hold these as foundational and totally agreeable with the most Scriptures.
1) The death burial and resurrection of Christ benefit only believers.
2) The blood shed was for all iniquity for all the creation. That does not mean atonement was made for all, for the atonement had multiple facets.
3) Therefore, it is right to say to everyone, “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved,” for there is no more sacrifice to be made than has been made.
4) When one believes, that person is given eternal life because Christ rose conquering death and the grave. However, one who does not believe is already condemned.
I just don’t find “only the sins of the elect” as fitting the standard of Scriptures, for we all have, do, and will sin. That results in physical death. Those that do not believe face the second death (lake of fire).
Our late TCassidy put forth “sufficient for all, efficient for some.” I just could not come that far with the whole of atonement.
The blood covers all sin, but rebellion turns the heart and mind away from the light.
What would be our Lord’s response to your question? It would not be the, “I am the resurrection and the life, anyone …”
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Therein is your problem
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
because there are some who say that "parables" are illustrations that can be either true, or even false, like myths, and cannot be taken as serious messages to derive doctrines from. For example, the Rich Man and Lazarus, is not a true account of the after-life for the lost and saved, as this is a parable that does not need to be truthful.
what makes you think that is not a true story.
In fact, If I am not mistaken - that is the only parable which gives the name of one of the individual.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
I said that there are SOME who use this idea that parables do not need to be factual. I believe that every parable that Jesus uses, including the Rich Man and Lazarus, IF it can be included in this class, are completely factual illustrations, that can be fully relied on.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
blah, blah, blah...
You guys speak in riddles, and not consistent to what the Bible teaches!
IF, the Gospel Call or Invitation is given to ALL, that is, the entire human race. Then this can only be SINCERE, if God has made provision for the ALL, in the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ. He must have Died for these ALL. Otherwise it is no more than a SHAM!
The Universal Call of the Gospel Message, to "every human created", as Mark 16:15 tells us, can only be serious, when we accept the Universal Death of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Not the same as Universal salvation.
This negates the TULI in TULIP!
We are merely “seed” sowers.
The seed is indiscriminately sown.
God is in charge of the dirt.
He makes the determination as to the use and conditions of the soil, not we.
The call goes out to all, for that is the will of the Father.
We may plant, we may water, “but God gives the increase.”