Would you sit as a guest at a dinner of fine food and wine and fail to thank your host?
Calvin was a brilliant theologian, and his work has helped Christ's Church. I thank God for him, and when I see Mr Calvin in glory, I will thank him as well.
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Ephesians 1 Clearly teaches Calvinism as to Salvation
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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Would you sit as a guest at a dinner of fine food and wine and fail to thank your host?
Calvin was a brilliant theologian, and his work has helped Christ's Church. I thank God for him, and when I see Mr Calvin in glory, I will thank him as well.
Gup20
Active Member
People who quote John 6:44 rarely continue reading to John 6:64 which explains John 6:44:
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
John 6:64-65
This shows the causal relationship between belief & election. They were not chosen BECAUSE (for this reason) they didn’t believe, not the other way around as Calvinism presupposes.
If it said, “there are some of you who were not chosen, and that’s why he was saying ‘no one can believe unless the Father grants it.’” then the Calvinistic interpretation would be correct, but as it stands, Jesus said belief was the cause or reason for the choosing, not the other way around.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 )
Jesus said the reason for belief is that it is a work of God.
" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 )
First He tells them that there are some who do not believe.
Then He tells them why they do not believe...because no man can come to ( believe on ) Him except it were given to that person of His Father.
" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 )
Jesus said the reason for unbelief, was in not being one of His sheep.
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )
God ordains a person to eternal life, then they believe.
" praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:47 )
The Lord adds to the church, such as should be saved.
" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 )
God chooses, then causes a person to come to Him.
Belief is the result of being chosen...not the other way around.
With respect, your way makes God indebted to man for his belief, while the other way makes man indebted to God for his belief.
The first way makes man his own savior.
The second way makes God his Saviour.
May God be praised for His unspeakable gift.
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No, brother. He was simply saying that we are implored to BELIEVE. Context clues us into that for they ask, "What must WE DO." and Christ says to the unbelieving crowd, "BELIEVE." They have yet to put their first step of faith forward, nothing else they could do would please God (Hebrews 11:6).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat." ( John 6:27-31 )
They ask Him what they can do to work the works of God...not to believe.
He answers them out of left field with a spiritual answer...not a direct ( to their minds ) one.
Why is it spiritual, and not carnal ( addressed to the carnal mind )?
He tells them later on in His address to them:
" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life." ( John 6:63 )
...that the words He speaks to them are spiritual, not carnal.
No one is "implored to believe" by Jesus in chapter 6 of John.
They are admonished not to labor for the meat which perishes...but are instead to labor for the meat that does not perish:
Him.
Jesus, the bread of life.
They ask Him what sign He would give, so that they would believe...even though at the beginning of the chapter He had just fed thousands from a few fish and loaves.
Yet, they still did not believe who He was.
Read it again, Jon.
The whole chapter.
...and remember:
Nothing a man does in and of himself pleases God.
All our works are as filthy rags.
That's why He had to send His Son.
" But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." ( Hebrews 11:6 )
Those who come, come because they are bidden...not because they decided to on their own.
Believers come and believe, and they are rewarded for diligently seeking Him...
...not because they came, but because He caused it ( Psalms 65:4 ).
God will not give His glory to another ( Isaiah 42:8 ).
He will not allow man to take credit for one iota of his salvation ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ).
He gets all the glory, and man is left with nothing to boast in except His mercy and grace.
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Implore may not have been a good word choice, however, the intent still stands. They wanted to labor for eternal life when Christ was saying He was the Manna to be Received and believed upon for Eternal Life. John is inherently evangelistic, therefore, it would only make sense to demonstrate the Jew's deficiencies in the matter, namely, rejecting Christ as the Messiah.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
They weren't laboring for eternal life...they were concerned with Him because they saw Him feed the thousands, and were interested in Him performing more miracles; that's why He admonished them not to labor for the "meat" that perishes.
He turns the conversation from earthly bread to spiritual.
Later on in the chapter, when He gets spiritual in His words by telling them of eating His flesh and drinking His blood, they are offended and leave.
They didn't understand the difference between the carnal words and the spiritual.
Best wishes, sir.
Brother, look what the passage says...you are partially correct, but you do not finish the thought here
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
Yes, Christ admonishes them to LABOR NOT FOR FOOD THAT SPOILS, BUT for the FOOD that BRINGS ETERNAL LIFE
So they think to themselves, "OK, sure...What do I need to DO in order to Labor for This FOOD, This ETERNAL LIFE..." Then they say....
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
So, yes, they do transition to SOME SORT of Understanding about "Laboring for Eternal Life" because Christ gets them to focus on the more important issue, not them chasing Him down because he did that miracle and provided food.
So, He Let's them know what Labor will bring them into Eternal Life...And it's NOT a work at all, contrary to their PRIDEFUL way of thinking and how they think they Can EARN FAVOR with God...
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
And They Say basically, In order for US to BELIEVE, you Have to Show us a SIGN...
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
I have decided to take your advice and only follow the word of God. Therefore I shall not be taking your advice because it isn't the word of God.
Gup20
Active Member
If you look at the context, Jesus had just disappeared & moved to a far place by the power of God. They found him on the other side of the sea, they asked how they could have this power and do works such as this. Jesus told them that miracle (him being transported) was the work of God SO THAT they would believe in Jesus’ divine commission. The work isn’t the believing, the work in this verse is the transport miracle.
Gup20
Active Member
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I think this is important, and it’s good for us to seek to find the truth of the matter.
The crux of this passage is in a word which is not common modern English vernacular. The word “therefore” in verse 65. Modern translations don’t use this word, but older translations do.
there·fore
/ˈT͟Herˌfôr/
adverb
- for that reason; consequently.
"he was injured and therefore unable to play"
synonyms: consequently, so, as a result, hence, thus, accordingly, for that reason, ergo, that being the case, on that account;
Some do not believe, therefore they cannot come to the Father. Your interpretation is:
Some cannot come to the Father, therefore they do not believe.
There is an important word: “of”. It is the Greek “ek” meaning “to come from” denoting origin. The sheep are people, not God. The implication is that salvific association is of human origin, not heavenly origin. Indeed a proper understanding of the righteousness that comes by faith (as opposed to the righteousness of the law) is that the way one qualifies to inherit that faith-based righteousness is by human adoption into the descendants of Abraham. Human adoption doesn’t require you to be regenerated in spirit. The way you are adopted into the family of Abraham is by having the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had:
Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Calvin & Arminius both made the same, grave error. This is why this debate has raged for centuries without resolution - because they were both profoundly wrong regarding their underlying assumption; both assumed that faith lead directly to righteousness & salvation. It does not! Faith INDIRECTLY leads to righteousness. Faith merely qualifies us for human adoption into the family of the descendants of Abraham... then descendants of Abraham inherit Christ’s righteousness which was given to Abraham in a 1:1 exchange. Otherwise, Christ (or some other sinless figure) would have to die once for every person who was saved. Through inheritance, Christ righteousness was assured to all the descendants of Abraham.
Genesis 15:5-6 (NASB) 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 17:4-7 (NASB) 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
Abraham is the only Christian who’s righteousness was direct for his faith. All others are indirect through inheritance from their father Abraham. Ephesians 1 confirms this:
Ephesians 1:10-14 (NASB) 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
John Calvin himself knew that the descendants of Abraham were chosen people as a group, rather than as individuals. However he didn’t realize that ALL Christians are chosen this way as well.
John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
God chose the group “the descendants of Abraham.” We qualify as members of this group through human adoption by having the same faith as Abraham.
Colossians 1:12
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His loving kindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with himTo give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.
Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
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I see him along with a person such as Augustine as being the top tiered theologians not Apostles, but would like to hear from him how he found infant baptism in the Bible!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree that the sheep are people...they are His people.
"Salvific"...
Is that another word for "the power to save?"
I don't work on implication, sir.
With respect, you may, but I trust clear-cut declaration over implication any day of the week.
So you're telling me that I'm adopted into the physical family of Abraham ( the 12 tribes of Israel ) by "exercising faith"?
In addition, in the underlined I see something that makes me sit up...that a person doesn't have to be regenerated in order to be adopted into God's family.
I agree.
Regeneration comes after adoption, but before calling.
In the last sentence, I see you stating that, to be adopted, one has to have the faith first.
How does one get that faith, if it is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ) authored and finished by Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and which was delivered to the saints ( Jude 1:3 )...and wasn't inherent in any of them?
In other words, how does one exercise that which God did not create a person with?
Since it was delivered, that means they didn't have it to begin with.
Where did it come from?
Let me see if I am understanding you correctly...
Inheriting Christ's righteousness is a one-to-one exchange between God and men.
God gives Christ's righteousness in return for our faith...
What does God get in return for giving up His precious Son for the rest of eternity?
Second question:
Faith is the means by which the believer has purchased eternal life?
" For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 6:23 ).
As I see it, that makes it a very strange gift indeed.
I don't normally think of a gift as something that has to be earned by performing an act, but rather given, when one is not expecting it.
To me, if someone has to perform an act, or meet a requirement to get something, then that makes it a reward, not a gift.
" Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." ( Romans 4:4-5 )
Based on the above, if man has to perform an act, then it's not grace, it is debt...and one that God owes to the person performing the act.
" Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." ( Romans 11:5-6 )
Here I see that if election is by grace, then it is not of works.
If by works, then it is not by grace.
The two are not compatible.
Therefore, if one tries to mix man's efforts in with God's, then it is no longer grace, but works.
Breaking down what I think you just stated above, you are telling me that salvation can be acquired similar to a market deal, in which God trades eternal life for man's faith in the finished work of His Son.
Correct?
But salvation is by grace ( Ephesians 2:8 ) not of works ( Ephesians 2:9 ), so how do you reconcile the fact that salvation is by grace, and yet you seem to be advocating working for it?
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Absolutely. I've always wondered why we Calvinists are not known as Paulinists.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I'm not related to Abraham by blood...only the members of the 12 tribes are.
With that in mind, I'm guessing you're speaking of spiritual descendants, not physical.
Christ died once ( Hebrews 10:14 ) to atone for the sins of His people ( Matthew 1:21 ).
Believers inherit the righteousness of Christ as part of their inheritance.
They walk in the same footsteps as their spiritual father, Abraham, and have the faith of their Lord, Jesus Christ, which is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
With respect, I've never read Calvin, except the chapter on predestination in the "Institutes", after I already understood it from Scripture.
In addition, Paul knew that the spiritual descendants of Abraham, because it was revealed to him, were chosen as individuals that make up a group:
" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" ( Romans 8:29-30 )
" That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." ( Romans 9:8 )
It was also revealed to David ( Psalms 65:4 ), Peter ( 1 Peter 1:1-2 ) and others.
May God bless you abundantly in His mercy and the knowledge of Him and His Son.
How you could come up with that way to see things only demonstrates that evidence is of no value in these discussions when people hold a worldview with a tighter grip than they hold truth, or the pursuit of truth.
Gup20
Active Member
Salvific is not a real word... I mean "relating to salvation."
Yes.
Ephesians 1 gives us the sequence:
Eph 1:13-14 NASB 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
After you hear the gospel, you believe the gospel, and once you believe the gospel you are qualified as an inheritor of the righteousness that was given to Abraham. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer as a pledge for the full inheritance which comes after resurrection. You could call hearing the gospel the "call" to salvation.
Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
The "not of yourselves" doesn't relate to faith, but to the saving. If it were by works you would earn it, but since it's by faith through inheritance, it is a gift. Just as the children do not earn an inheritance from their father, they get it freely.
Rom 4:3-5 NASB 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
No that is incorrect.
2Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
This verse demonstrates that Christ exchanged his righteousness for our sin. However, the 1:1 exchange was between Christ and Abraham. All Christians after Abraham INHERIT Christs righteousness as a result of their familial relationship to Abraham.
Gen 17:7
“I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
Hebrews 1:4
having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
Heb 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
This is how Jesus Christ himself was made righteous again after having the sin of the world laid upon Him in the 1:1 exchange with Abraham. He inherited again his own righteousness by having faith in God's promises and qualifying for the eternal covenant (as Heb 13:30 says above), thereby demonstrating the covenant as legally valid.
1Co 15:20-23 NASB 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
No. God promised Abraham that his descendants would inherit the righteousness he was given. God chose Abraham's descendants and allows us to qualify as heirs by faith and become associated with the chosen group. Would anyone doubt that the Jews are God's "chosen people?" Which ones? The practicing Jews? Were they only God's chosen people when they were following The Law? No, they have always been and will always be God's chosen people, and he disciplines them when they go astray. They aren't individually chosen, but selected as a group. Even Calvinists would acknowledge that (as John Calvin himself did). But Salvation is not direct. You don't get regenerated for faith. You don't get indwelled by the Holy Spirit for faith. You get regenerated and indwelled for being qualified as a descendant of Abraham.
Luke 19:9
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.”
He didn't... He knew the plan for salvation from the beginning. This is why Paul tells us that the promises made to Abraham were to him and to his seed (singular) meaning that promise is being made specifically to Christ:
Gal 3:16
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
No, eternal life is a promise God makes to the seed of Abraham. Faith is the means by which we purchase entry into that familial relationship. You are still making the same mistake of Calvin and Arminius in seeing faith and righteousness as direct. They are indirect. Faith qualifies you in the family of Abraham, and the descendants inherit righteousness.
Have a look at how Jesus sees the "seed of Abraham" or "descendants of Abraham:"
John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
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