Ephesians 2:1-10. What Does Paul Say?

[Tsalagi]

I don't believe in speculative theology. the Bible tells us that God created Adam and Eve perfect, they disobeyed God, which means they had a "free will", and thereby transgressed against God, and "fell" from His Grace. Unless I have missed this, there is not verse in the Bible that says that they were ever "restored" to the Lord, and "born again".

The Bible doesn't say any Old Testament personages were born again. It doesn't say any of the apostles were born again (or baptized in water, for that matter). You seem to be setting arbitrary criteria for documentation of rather obvious truths. If Eve says "I have gotten a man from the Lord" I'm going to conclude she's got a relationship with Him. If Luke 3:38 says Adam is the son of God, I'm going to believe it; apparently such testimony isn't good enough for you. Well, good luck with that.

 

[AustinC]

Adam was not "born-again", nor was "Lazarus"!

Did God call Adam or did Adam call on God?
Did God call Lazarus or did Lazarus call on God?
Does God call a spiritually dead person or does a spiritually dead person call on God?

Do you see the pattern?

 

[AustinC]

I am sorry, but I get this impression, that you cannot grasp what I have said, and that you are assuming that I say things that I NEVER do. I NEVER BELIEVE THAT A SINNER CAN MERIT THEIR SALVATION. If you still cannot grasp this, I can give it to your in either, Hebrew, Greek, or Latin!!!

sbg, Dave is asking the same questions I have asked. These are the same questions others have asked you. Now, I could see one person missing your point, but now you are essentially saying that about 10 people are not understanding.

Might it be that it is you who is confused about grace and merit? I contend it is you who is not understanding grace as it is revealed in scripture. If it helps, I once had the same confusion you are exhibiting and it took God 20 years to clear it up for me. Thank God He is patient.

 

[Tsalagi]

There is no merit involved if He grants us the desire and power to repent by changing our hearts first, SBG.

["repent and believe" is a "merit work"] if it's placed before the new birth, which the Lord clearly states is not a product of our own will in John 1:13.

If I may offer a slight correction - receiving is placed before the new birth in John 1:11-13. Receiving has no power to birth us, so the birth is not "of" the one who wills or earnestly desires (cf. Romans 9:16). It is entirely and completely "of" the will of a merciful God that those who receive Christ are regenerated. Receiving by faith is declared by God to be not works and not meritorious, therefore even a fallen and spiritually dead man can do it.

I would further commend to your attention the preceding context of your citation, which says John the Baptist came to bear witness to the Light so that all might believe (v7), the "true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man" (v9).

 

[Tsalagi]

Did God call Adam or did Adam call on God?

God called Adam; and Adam, though fallen and spiritually dead, had the ability to respond and confess his sin.

Did God call Lazarus or did Lazarus call on God?

Lazarus was already a believer in Jesus before he died. His resuscitation is not a picture of salvation but of future resurrection (cf. John 5:25-29).

Does God call a spiritually dead person or does a spiritually dead person call on God?

God calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and all men everywhere are just as able to respond to that call as Adam was.

 

[AustinC]

God called Adam; and Adam, though fallen and spiritually dead, had the ability to respond and confess his sin.

Lazarus was already a believer in Jesus before he died. His resuscitation is not a picture of salvation but of future resurrection (cf. John 5:25-29).

God calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and all men everywhere are just as able to respond to that call as Adam was.

Adam heard God call. Lazarus heard God call. We heard God call.
When you hear Jesus voice, you respond.

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Was Adam not God's sheep before the call? Was Lazarus not God's sheep before the call? Were you and I not God's sheep before the call?

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Tsalagi, scripture is quite clear regarding who causes humans to respond.

 

[Dave G]

The Bible doesn't say any Old Testament personages were born again.

The Lord Jesus Himself said that in order to see the kingdom of God, a person must be born again.
In order to enter into it, one must be born of the Spirit:

" Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." ( John 3:3-8 ).

So, if the Bible does not say that any Old Testament personages were born again, why are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God?



" And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." ( Matthew 8:11 ).

" There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and [from] the west, and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." ( Luke 13:29 ).

 

[Tsalagi]

The Lord Jesus Himself said that in order to see the kingdom of God, a person must be born again.
In order to enter into it, one must be born of the Spirit:

" Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." ( John 3:3-8 ).

So, if the Bible does not say that any Old Testament personages were born again, why are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God?



" And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." ( Matthew 8:11 ).

" There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and [from] the west, and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." ( Luke 13:29 ).

I think you missed my point. I agree completely with you about the status of Old Testament saints. SavedByGrace says he doesn't believe Adam was ever born again because it is nowhere explicitly stated. I pointed out that there are many things not explicitly stated, that doesn't mean we can't recognize them as true. Perhaps a review of my post in that light will help it make more sense to you. Sorry if the confusion is my fault ...

 

[Dave G]

If I may offer a slight correction - receiving is placed before the new birth in John 1:11-13. Receiving has no power to birth us, so the birth is not "of" the one who wills or earnestly desires (cf. Romans 9:16). It is entirely and completely "of" the will of a merciful God that those who receive Christ are regenerated.

If you read the passage carefully, i think you'll see two groups objectively identified...
Those that did not receive him, and those that did.

The truth is, we're not directly told why they received Him in this passage, only that those who did were born of God.
But John 6 has something to say about why people come to Him and why they do not...
Because it must be given to someone to come to Him ( John 6:65 ), and according to John 17:2, Christ will only give the gift of eternal life to those who were given to Him by His Father.

God is the potter, and we are the clay, my friend ( Romans 9:14-24 ).

Receiving by faith is declared by God to be not works and not meritorious, therefore even a fallen and spiritually dead man can do it.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

Christ makes us alive, we do not cooperate with Him in His work of saving us.

I would further commend to your attention the preceding context of your citation, which says John the Baptist came to bear witness to the Light so that all might believe (v7), the "true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man" (v9).

Thank you, I'm well aware of that passage.
I'm sorry, but again it seems that you and I understand the Bible almost completely different:

For example,
I don't see it saying that He ENlightens every man...it says "lights" or "lighteth", in that He casts the light of truth on us ( please see 1 Corinthians 4:5 )...
That light is the truth about our sin, even though we refuse to repent ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).
Christ says that the world hates Him and it has no cloak for it's sin ( John 15:18-23 )....
It's that hatred and refusal to repent and seek reconciliation without His help that is described as being "dead in trespasses and sins", despite the light of truth.

Also, If Christ enlightens ( reveals Himself to ) every man, as Ephesians 1:17-18 says about believers, then we have universal salvation.
Instead, He reveals Himself to whosoever He pleases ( Matthew 11:25-27 ).


Good evening to you, sir.

 

[Tsalagi]

Adam heard God call. Lazarus heard God call. We heard God call.
When you hear Jesus voice, you respond.

When you hear Jesus voice, you respond.

Tsalagi, scripture is quite clear regarding who causes humans to respond.

So when God calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), all of them do so? Hmmm.

 

[Tsalagi]

If you read the passage carefully, i think you'll see two groups objectively identified...
Those that did not receive him, and those that did.

The truth is, we're not directly told why they received Him in this passage, only that those who did were born of God.
But John 6 has something to say about why people come to Him and why they do not...
Because it must be given to someone to come to Him ( John 6:65 ), and according to John 17:2, Christ will only give the gift of eternal life to those who were given to Him by His Father.

John 6 requires more than usual care in interpretation. Jesus says in the imperative mood, "Labor ... for the meat which endureth unto everlasting life" (v27). He says that to believe in Himself is to "work the works of God" (v28-29). Is labor and work necessary for salvation? We all agree that can't be what He means, and so it is with much of the chapter ("Eat my flesh, drink My blood" - these also require personal action on the part of the one partaking; what is the significance?).

God is the potter, and we are the clay, my friend ( Romans 9:14-24 ).

I find Jeremiah 18:1-11 &ff. helpfully illuminates Paul's use of that image. The potter has an original intention for shaping the clay, but the clay spoils in his hand and will not hold that intended shape, so he fashions it into something else suitable to its nature.

I'll respectfully address the rest of your worthy and well-expressed thoughts tomorrow ... time to retire!

 

[AustinC]

So when God calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), all of them do so? Hmmm.

All who were appointed to eternal life certainly do.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[SavedByGrace]

good luck

Christians don't need "good luck"!

 

[SavedByGrace]

you are essentially saying that about 10 people are not understanding

well YEAH! if the 10, or 20, or 100 are all CALVINISTS, who believe the same thing, then, they are ALL wrong!

 

[AustinC]

well YEAH! if the 10, or 20, or 100 are all CALVINISTS, who believe the same thing, then, they are ALL wrong!

How about if the 10, or 20 or 100 are all redeemed believers who read the whole of God's word and share His word with you. Are they all wrong?

sbg, shall I label you a methodist or a wesleyan who looks for verses that make salvation your doing so that you can choose both your salvation and your loss of salvation at any moment depending on your faith or lack of faith in the moment?
Shall we both ignore scripture in its context and just make wild claims about any sentence we pick in the Bible? Then, when someone doesn't accept our claim about the sentence we cherish, we can just label them in a way that sets them aside as irrelevant person's in God's family who are a minority that are wrong. Is that the approach you wish? Or, will we look at a whole passage and see what God is saying within the entire dialogue? Will we demand a method of salvation or will we recognize grace provided by God?

 

[Brightfame52]

it does not say anywhere that the Lord first has to make a person "alive" so that they can then call upon Him for salvation!

Does it say that they were made alive in the greek in Eph 2:5?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Does it say that they were made alive in the greek in Eph 2:5?

you tell me?

 

[Brightfame52]

you tell me?

You know it does! Why are you reluctant now. You had no problem being direct in the op about the phrase not being used in the original in Eph 2:1! Why shy now?

 

[SavedByGrace]

You know it does! Why are you reluctant now. You had no problem being direct in the op about the phrase not being used in the original in Eph 2:1! Why shy now?

you make me laugh! I know what the passage says! You like the others on here cannot produce a single verse from the Bible, that says the Lord first "makes alive" the sinner, to "enable" them to call upon Him. Nothing in the passage in Ephesians 2 says this. IF, you guys spend time reading what the Word says, without your theology, you will see that Paul is here showing how believers were in a lost state when in the world, how God saved them. Don't read into Scripture what it never says! You show from verse five, English or Greek, where it says that sinners are first "made alive", in order to be saved?

 

[Brightfame52]

you make me laugh! I know what the passage says! You like the others on here cannot produce a single verse from the Bible, that says the Lord first "makes alive" the sinner, to "enable" them to call upon Him. Nothing in the passage in Ephesians 2 says this. IF, you guys spend time reading what the Word says, without your theology, you will see that Paul is here showing how believers were in a lost state when in the world, how God saved them. Don't read into Scripture what it never says! You show from verse five, English or Greek, where it says that sinners are first "made alive", in order to be saved?

If they were made alive, then that presupposes they were dead. Dead in sin. And yes one is made alive or quicken inorder to call upon the name of the lord Ps 80:18

So will not we go back from thee:
quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

So calling upon the name of the lord is evidence of having been saved or quickened, not the cause.