Ephesians 2:1-10. What Does Paul Say?

LOL, you are now arguing against someone who actually had some agreement with you. That should really give you pause regarding your theological premise.

 

As Adam's response to God should give you pause regarding yours ... ;-)

 

Adam's response? What about God's response to Adam? It is God who covenanted with Adam, just as God covenanted with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Himself (New Covenant).
God covenants with Adam that Adam's offspring will crush the head of the serpent.
God is solely responsible for choosing to save whom He wills. Our response to God in repentance is an effect of God causing us to be saved.

If you cannot accept this, it can only be due to your human attempt to wrestle control from God.

 

I'm asking you to address Genesis 3:9-12, which records a manifestly fallen and "spiritually dead" Adam responding on his own to the call of God. His dead spiritual status does not prevent his response to that call. This is the archetypal passage on interaction between fallen man and holy God. What a great opportunity to vindicate your view, to have Adam drop dead immediately after his disobedience and have God resuscitate him so he can confess and receive his clothing of skins. Strangely enough, that isn't what happened. One understanding of how salvation takes place comports completely with the pattern established here, and the other doesn't. The non-comporting view is yours.

 

I see it plainly when I read the passage for myself, though I did not always.
For the record, until roughly 15 years ago, I was an "Independent Fundamental Baptist" .

Now it seems I'm much more of a "Particular Baptist", if I had to pick a term for it.

I agree, which is why, even though I use the AV exclusively, I simply skip over the italics.

I also notice that, per the Greek found here:
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/eph2.pdf

"Hath He quickened" is not in the Greek in verse 1, but it basically is in verse 5.

 

I agree.

Again, I agree.
There is nothing in this passage that says that God first quickens the sinner, so that they can then call upon Him.
To me, that is understood out of other passages exterior to this particular one.

But it does say that He did quicken them, or make them alive in Christ.

John 3:36 specifically states that someone who believes on Christ has ( not "will have" ) eternal life.
Therefore, a person's belief follows ( not precedes ) their having been given the gift of eternal life

 

Well said and I agree with you here most wholeheartedly.
But as in other threads, I'm a little confused.

While you make the statement that I've highlighted above, I have to wonder if you really and actually believe what you are stating...
That people are saved strictly by God's grace and mercy ( Titus 3:5-7 ), or whether something a person does ( like "exercises faith" or believes on Christ ) can be used to persuade the Lord to save us.

Again, amen.

Yet again, I agree.

 

Why not?

Shouldn't I take what was developed in Ephesians 1 and carry it over to the second chapter,
keeping firmly in mind and building on the facts that I was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ), predestinated to my adoption as His child ( Ephesians 1:5 ), was made accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 ), have redemption through His blood the forgiveness of sins and that it was because of the riches of His grace towards me ( Ephesians 1:7 ) and made known to me the mystery of His will ( Ephesians 1:8 )?

Am I supposed to forget that I have obtained an inheritance because I was predestinated to it by the Lord...who works all things after the counsel of His own will ( Ephesians 1:11 )?
That after I believed, I was sealed with His Spirit ( not born again, but indwelt by His Spirit ) which is the down payment of my inheritance ( Ephesians 1:13 )?

I hope not,
because it would be wrong, at least to me, to lose sight of these valuable details when I go on to read further in the letter.

I agree.
Anyone who is saved must do these things, as they certainly characterize a true believer.

However, if you're telling me that these things must be performed by the person before they are saved,
Then to me you just front-loaded the Gospel and violated the terms of your earlier statements regarding salvation not being the result of human effort, I'm sorry to say.

 

With respect,
I was following along just fine until you ( apparently ) contradicted yourself and brought two conditions ( not evidences, but conditions that men must fullfil in order to be saved ) into the equation.

Did I read that right?

Yes, it appears that I did indeed read that right.

In direct contrast to your earlier statements, you seem to be now introducing "conditions" that must be met ( not evidences that must be present and works that must be fulfilled in someone that is already saved ) in order for a person to gain their salvation or to stay saved.

No, they are not passive in their salvation...
But neither do their own efforts determine their salvation.

With all due respect to you SBG, what you're proposing looks and functions exactly like the Law, and not grace.
God's gift of eternal life in no way hinges upon our own efforts.
In fact, you said so yourself in the first post.

Why, after making it plain to all that it was by no effort, do you now introduce our own efforts into it?


You're confusing me, sir.

 

May I ask, did God choose to call out Adam and Eve, or did Adam and Eve call out to God?

Did God call out to Lazarus in the tomb, or did Lazarus call out of the tomb to God?

 

I respect that it is your opinion of what the Bible teaches.
But to me, you're confusing grace and works and think that something a person is responsible for, is what ultimately grants them God's favor.

 

That would be the wrong word to use, as we could say freewill as defined bu non cals would be a fantasy!

 

Respectfully,
I'm not "Reformed" and I never was exposed to anything even remotely like it growing up in IFB churches.
I was simply reading the Bible one day for myself, and a number of passages began to "make a dent" in my understanding.

As for salvation being unconditional, that is precisely what it does teach...
In fact, you said so yourself ( and agreed with it ), right here:

Have you changed your mind, or did you not really mean what you said here?

 

Sure, no problem. Your OP addresses "those, like the Reformed/Calvinists, who try to “prove” from somewhere in Scripture, that a sinner is first “made alive”, and then they are “able” to call on the Name of the Lord, for their salvation." I cited Genesis 3:9-12 as the archetypal passage that argues persuasively against this view. If you find the contribution off-topic I am happy to desist.

 

A quick perusal of Romans 5 argues otherwise.