Ephesians 2:1-10. What Does Paul Say?

[AustinC]

sounds like you are fighting against the Word of God!

LOL, you are now arguing against someone who actually had some agreement with you. That should really give you pause regarding your theological premise.

 

[Tsalagi]

LOL, you are now arguing against someone who actually had some agreement with you. That should really give you pause regarding your theological premise.

As Adam's response to God should give you pause regarding yours ... ;-)

 

[AustinC]

As Adam's response to God should give you pause regarding yours ... ;-)

Adam's response? What about God's response to Adam? It is God who covenanted with Adam, just as God covenanted with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Himself (New Covenant).
God covenants with Adam that Adam's offspring will crush the head of the serpent.
God is solely responsible for choosing to save whom He wills. Our response to God in repentance is an effect of God causing us to be saved.

If you cannot accept this, it can only be due to your human attempt to wrestle control from God.

 

[Tsalagi]

Adam's response? What about God's response to Adam? It is God who covenanted with Adam, just as God covenanted with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Himself (New Covenant).
God covenants with Adam that Adam's offspring will crush the head of the serpent.
God is solely responsible for choosing to save whom He wills. Our response to God in repentance is an effect of God causing us to be saved.

I'm asking you to address Genesis 3:9-12, which records a manifestly fallen and "spiritually dead" Adam responding on his own to the call of God. His dead spiritual status does not prevent his response to that call. This is the archetypal passage on interaction between fallen man and holy God. What a great opportunity to vindicate your view, to have Adam drop dead immediately after his disobedience and have God resuscitate him so he can confess and receive his clothing of skins. Strangely enough, that isn't what happened. One understanding of how salvation takes place comports completely with the pattern established here, and the other doesn't. The non-comporting view is yours.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I'm asking you to address Genesis 3:9-12, which records a manifestly fallen and "spiritually dead" Adam responding on his own to the call of God. His dead spiritual status does not prevent his response to that call. This is the archetypal passage on interaction between fallen man and holy God. What a great opportunity to vindicate your view, to have Adam drop dead immediately after his disobedience and have God resuscitate him so he can confess and receive his clothing of skins. Strangely enough, that isn't what happened. One understanding of how salvation takes place comports completely with the pattern established here, and the other doesn't. The non-comporting view is yours.

Please don't use this thread for anything that is not relevant to the OP. Thanks

 

[Dave G]

This is a much used and abused passage, by those, like the Reformed/Calvinists, who try to “prove” from somewhere in Scripture, that a sinner is first “made alive”, and then they are “able” to call on the Name of the Lord, for their salvation.

I see it plainly when I read the passage for myself, though I did not always.
For the record, until roughly 15 years ago, I was an "Independent Fundamental Baptist" .

Now it seems I'm much more of a "Particular Baptist", if I had to pick a term for it.

Some Bible versions, like the King James version, render the first verse, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins”. Note that the words “hath he quickened”, are in in italics, which means there are not part of the original Greek, which is “και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις”. I would like anyone to show from the Greek here, where they find the words, “hath he quickened”. It does not exist!

I agree, which is why, even though I use the AV exclusively, I simply skip over the italics.

I also notice that, per the Greek found here:
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/eph2.pdf

"Hath He quickened" is not in the Greek in verse 1, but it basically is in verse 5.

 

[Dave G]

Paul in this passage, is telling Christians, that they “once walked…once lived”, in sinful lives, pleasing their sinful passions, and were naturally “children of wrath”, like the rest of the people in this world. Paul the goes on to show these Christians, that even though they were spiritually “dead”, that it was the Lord, Who is Rich in Mercy, “made us alive together with Christ”, and it is by His Grace that we are born-again, and not by any good works that we have, or can do.

I agree.

There is absolutely nothing in this passage that says, that God first “quickens” the sinner, so that they then have the “ability”, to call on the Lord for salvation.

Again, I agree.
There is nothing in this passage that says that God first quickens the sinner, so that they can then call upon Him.
To me, that is understood out of other passages exterior to this particular one.

But it does say that He did quicken them, or make them alive in Christ.

This is something that those who teach this unbiblical nonsense, want us to believe, is from the Holy Bible, as some also try to force John 3:1-8, to show this same teaching, which is not there either!

John 3:36 specifically states that someone who believes on Christ has ( not "will have" ) eternal life.
Therefore, a person's belief follows ( not precedes ) their having been given the gift of eternal life

 

[Dave G]

All Paul is doing, is showing the sinner who has been “saved”, that this was not because of any human “efforts”, where we, by our “good works”, can some how “appease” God of His Just wrath against us, and thereby save us by what “good”, that we have done. Our salvation is not because of what “we have done”, but based on the Great Mercy, Love, and Forgiveness of our Great God.

Well said and I agree with you here most wholeheartedly.
But as in other threads, I'm a little confused.

While you make the statement that I've highlighted above, I have to wonder if you really and actually believe what you are stating...
That people are saved strictly by God's grace and mercy ( Titus 3:5-7 ), or whether something a person does ( like "exercises faith" or believes on Christ ) can be used to persuade the Lord to save us.

Notice, that there is no mention here of any “faith”, as a requirement for salvation, because Paul is not here dealing with this, but showing that we are saved not because or own “merits”, but by Grace alone.

Again, amen.

Paul is contrasting the old life of the saved believer, with their lives before in this sinful world that they live in.

Yet again, I agree.

 

[Dave G]

Nothing else should be read into this.

Why not?

Shouldn't I take what was developed in Ephesians 1 and carry it over to the second chapter,
keeping firmly in mind and building on the facts that I was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ), predestinated to my adoption as His child ( Ephesians 1:5 ), was made accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 ), have redemption through His blood the forgiveness of sins and that it was because of the riches of His grace towards me ( Ephesians 1:7 ) and made known to me the mystery of His will ( Ephesians 1:8 )?

Am I supposed to forget that I have obtained an inheritance because I was predestinated to it by the Lord...who works all things after the counsel of His own will ( Ephesians 1:11 )?
That after I believed, I was sealed with His Spirit ( not born again, but indwelt by His Spirit ) which is the down payment of my inheritance ( Ephesians 1:13 )?

I hope not,
because it would be wrong, at least to me, to lose sight of these valuable details when I go on to read further in the letter.

This passage in no way removes the fact, that for the sinner to be saved, they must “repent” of their sins (Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47; Acts 2:37-38; 3:19, etc), and “believe” in the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Gospel as a whole (Mark 1:15, 16:16; Hebrews 11:6, etc).

I agree.
Anyone who is saved must do these things, as they certainly characterize a true believer.

However, if you're telling me that these things must be performed by the person before they are saved,
Then to me you just front-loaded the Gospel and violated the terms of your earlier statements regarding salvation not being the result of human effort, I'm sorry to say.

 

[Dave G]

Regardless of what some might teach, that all that a person requires for their salvation, is to just “believe”, this is NOT what the Bible Teaches, as “Repentance from sins and Faith in Jesus Christ”, are the Bible way for true salvation.

With respect,
I was following along just fine until you ( apparently ) contradicted yourself and brought two conditions ( not evidences, but conditions that men must fullfil in order to be saved ) into the equation.

Did I read that right?

I answer from one Scripture passage from the Lord's own words:

"Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able" Luke 13:24

Literally, "make every effort", etc. WHO is this addressed to? God? or to the sinful human race? WHY would the Lord ask the sinner to MAKE EVERY EFFORT to enter heaven, if it has all already been done for them? Reformed Soteriology is NOT what the Bible actually teaches, but a grave error from the devil!

Yes, it appears that I did indeed read that right.

In direct contrast to your earlier statements, you seem to be now introducing "conditions" that must be met ( not evidences that must be present and works that must be fulfilled in someone that is already saved ) in order for a person to gain their salvation or to stay saved.

Luke 13:24 is about the Narrow Gate that leads to salvation. Here Jesus responds to the question, "Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” (verse 23). "Make every effort" on your part, says Jesus! Does this sound to you, that the sinner is "passive" in their salvation? simple yes or no will do. Thanks

No, they are not passive in their salvation...
But neither do their own efforts determine their salvation.

With all due respect to you SBG, what you're proposing looks and functions exactly like the Law, and not grace.
God's gift of eternal life in no way hinges upon our own efforts.
In fact, you said so yourself in the first post.

Why, after making it plain to all that it was by no effort, do you now introduce our own efforts into it?


You're confusing me, sir.

 

[AustinC]

I'm asking you to address Genesis 3:9-12, which records a manifestly fallen and "spiritually dead" Adam responding on his own to the call of God. His dead spiritual status does not prevent his response to that call. This is the archetypal passage on interaction between fallen man and holy God. What a great opportunity to vindicate your view, to have Adam drop dead immediately after his disobedience and have God resuscitate him so he can confess and receive his clothing of skins. Strangely enough, that isn't what happened. One understanding of how salvation takes place comports completely with the pattern established here, and the other doesn't. The non-comporting view is yours.

May I ask, did God choose to call out Adam and Eve, or did Adam and Eve call out to God?

Did God call out to Lazarus in the tomb, or did Lazarus call out of the tomb to God?

 

[SavedByGrace]

With respect,
I was following along just fine until you ( apparently ) contradicted yourself and brought two conditions ( not evidences, but conditions that men must fullfil in order to be saved ) into the equation.

Did I read that right?

Yes, it appears that I did indeed read that right.

In direct contrast to your earlier statements, you seem to be now introducing "conditions" that must be met ( not evidences that must be present and works that must be fulfilled in someone that is already saved ) in order for a person to gain their salvation or to stay saved.

No, they are not passive in their salvation...
But neither do their own efforts determine their salvation.

With all due respect to you SBG, what you're proposing looks and functions exactly like the Law, and not grace.
God's gift of eternal life in no way hinges upon our own efforts.
In fact, you said so yourself in the first post.

Why, after making it plain to all that it was by no effort, do you now introduce our own efforts into it?


You're confusing me, sir.

I have written what the Bible Teaches so there's no confusion at all. The Bible nowhere teaches that salvation is unconditional, reformed theology does and this is a heresy

 

[SavedByGrace]

May I ask, did God choose to call out Adam and Eve, or did Adam and Eve call out to God?

Did God call out to Lazarus in the tomb, or did Lazarus call out of the tomb to God?

Can you please stop using this thread for your arguments on things other than the OP

 

[Dave G]

I have written what the Bible Teaches so there's no confusion at all.

I respect that it is your opinion of what the Bible teaches.
But to me, you're confusing grace and works and think that something a person is responsible for, is what ultimately grants them God's favor.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have written what the Bible Teaches so there's no confusion at all. The Bible nowhere teaches that salvation is unconditional, reformed theology does and this is a heresy

That would be the wrong word to use, as we could say freewill as defined bu non cals would be a fantasy!

 

[Dave G]

he Bible nowhere teaches that salvation is unconditional, reformed theology does and this is a heresy

Respectfully,
I'm not "Reformed" and I never was exposed to anything even remotely like it growing up in IFB churches.
I was simply reading the Bible one day for myself, and a number of passages began to "make a dent" in my understanding.

As for salvation being unconditional, that is precisely what it does teach...
In fact, you said so yourself ( and agreed with it ), right here:

All Paul is doing, is showing the sinner who has been “saved”, that this was not because of any human “efforts”, where we, by our “good works”, can some how “appease” God of His Just wrath against us, and thereby save us by what “good”, that we have done. Our salvation is not because of what “we have done”, but based on the Great Mercy, Love, and Forgiveness of our Great God.

Have you changed your mind, or did you not really mean what you said here?

 

[Tsalagi]

Please don't use this thread for anything that is not relevant to the OP. Thanks

Sure, no problem. Your OP addresses "those, like the Reformed/Calvinists, who try to “prove” from somewhere in Scripture, that a sinner is first “made alive”, and then they are “able” to call on the Name of the Lord, for their salvation." I cited Genesis 3:9-12 as the archetypal passage that argues persuasively against this view. If you find the contribution off-topic I am happy to desist.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I respect that it is your opinion of what the Bible teaches.

But to me, you're confusing grace and works and think that something a person is responsible for, is what ultimately grants them God's favor.

and that is YOUR opinion, which you are entitled to. you claim that you are neither reformed or calvinistic, your arguments clearly are!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Sure, no problem. Your OP addresses "those, like the Reformed/Calvinists, who try to “prove” from somewhere in Scripture, that a sinner is first “made alive”, and then they are “able” to call on the Name of the Lord, for their salvation." I cited Genesis 3:9-12 as the archetypal passage that argues persuasively against this view. If you find the contribution off-topic I am happy to desist.

Genesis 3:9-12 has nothing to do with salvation!

 

[Tsalagi]

Genesis 3:9-12 has nothing to do with salvation!

A quick perusal of Romans 5 argues otherwise.