Ephesians 2:8-9

[JesusFan]

The question you asked was based on those in the Gospels (RE: Jews before Christ had died). This was still an OT message. John the Baptist was the last of the OT prophets.

After Christ died the message of salvation is the same for the Jews as it is for the Gentiles. There is only one way for salvation--through the shed blood of Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.

So you would say that when Billy Graham said all those years that you HAVE to repent, confess you are a sinner, and trust in Christ did NOT have to have the repenting part in there?

 

[JesusFan]

Right, I understand. So, what is to prevent a person who has mentally agreed with these facts from repenting and believing in Him as Lord and Savior?

From scripture...

because God has not called/drawn them by the HS to jesus, NOT His sheep

instead are Chidren of the Devil, see John 8:42-47!

 

[JesusFan]

The actual salvation moment is when a person puts their faith in Christ, and Christ saves them. It is Christ that saves.

Based upon our faith, or in the Will of God that we get saved?

 

[DHK]

So you would say that when Billy Graham said all those years that you HAVE to repent, confess you are a sinner, and trust in Christ did NOT have to have the repenting part in there?

I believe many people are confused on this subject and perhaps it should be explained better. Repentance and faith are two sides of one coin. One repents when he puts faith in Christ. One cannot put faith in Christ without repenting. If one was rebelling against Christ and then puts faith in Christ, has he not just repented? Has his mind and attitude toward God just changed? If the person has not changed; if he has not become a new creature in Christ then is he a Christian?

I believe in repentance. But I don't believe it is the same thing that the majority of preachers define it today--repenting from your sins. Repentance is always toward God, not from sins. It is a change of mind toward God.

 

[DHK]

Based upon our faith, or in the Will of God that we get saved?

Based upon Scripture.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
There are many other like scriptures which say the same thing.

 

[JesusFan]

I believe many people are confused on this subject and perhaps it should be explained better. Repentance and faith are two sides of one coin. One repents when he puts faith in Christ. One cannot put faith in Christ without repenting. If one was rebelling against Christ and then puts faith in Christ, has he not just repented? Has his mind and attitude toward God just changed? If the person has not changed; if he has not become a new creature in Christ then is he a Christian?

I believe in repentance. But I don't believe it is the same thing that the majority of preachers define it today--repenting from your sins. Repentance is always toward God, not from sins. It is a change of mind toward God.

See. a cal and an Arm can agree!
Also see it as changing our mind in that we realise that we are sinners that need to be saved, and that Jesus is that Saviour!

repenting of sins is after salvation, as we confess and repent of them before the Lord!

 

[JesusFan]

Based upon Scripture.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
There are many other like scriptures which say the same thing.

SAME Bible says also NOT due to the will of man, but to the Will of God!

 

[Skandelon]

because God has not called/drawn them by the HS to jesus, NOT His sheep

You are right, in John 10 he hadn't sent the gospel into the world in order to draw all men to himself. He was hiding the truth in parables as Israel was being hardened. The gospel wasn't taken to the Gentiles until much later (they are the "other flock" which must be "brought in.")

The GOSPEL is the means God has chosen to draw all men to Himself. In the context of John 10 only a select few from Israel were being given the revelation directly from Christ, the rest were being blinded from it. Later those same sheep would take the message to the rest of the world.

instead are Chidren of the Devil, see John 8:42-47!

Weren't we all once "children of the devil" prior to our being saved? What does this prove?

 

[JesusFan]

You are right, in John 10 he hadn't sent the gospel into the world in order to draw all men to himself. He was hiding the truth in parables as Israel was being hardened. The gospel wasn't taken to the Gentiles until much later (they are the "other flock" which must be "brought in.")

The GOSPEL is the means God has chosen to draw all men to Himself. In the context of John 10 only a select few from Israel were being given the revelation directly from Christ, the rest were being blinded from it. Later those same sheep would take the message to the rest of the world.

Weren't we all once "children of the devil" prior to our being saved? What does this prove?

That those whom are "of God" are those that God has called/drawn to be saved, rest are allowed to stay where they are, hardened in their herats towards God, children of the Devil

Don't think refers to JUST Jews of that time, but to ALL who are not part of the Body of Christ, IE His sheep!

 

[Skandelon]

That those whom are "of God" are those that God has called/drawn to be saved

God has called many who do not come. ("Many are called, few are chosen.")

He hold out his hands to obstantant men, in patience:

"But concerning Israel he says, 'All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.'" - Rom 10:21

He longs to gather them:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." - Matt 23:37

He draws all men to himself! (John 12:32)

rest are allowed to stay where they are

Agreed, but its not because they are born unable to come otherwise they'd have a good excuse for not coming. They stay because they have freely chosen to resist the clearly seen and understood revelation of God. They stand without excuse!

hardened in their herats towards God

The bible never says men are born hardened, but that only after they rebel continually that they will GROW or BECOME hardened as a result of their own choice to resist God's clear revelation of Himself. They perish because THEY refused God, not because God has refused them!!!

Don't think refers to JUST Jews of that time, but to ALL who are not part of the Body of Christ, IE His sheep!

Please re-read through that passage and he clearly speaks of two folds that must be brought in. The first is the remnant of Israel and the next is those who believe through their message.

 

[DHK]

SAME Bible says also NOT due to the will of man, but to the Will of God!

It also says it is the will of God that all men be saved.

But more importantly.
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)

And dozens of more verses say the same thing.
Believe...
Call....
Whosoever believes...

It is left up to the individual person to make a decision for Christ. He has that choice. God gave it to him. God never forces a person to come to Christ. He gives him the choice.

 

[JesusFan]

It also says it is the will of God that all men be saved.

But more importantly.
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)

And dozens of more verses say the same thing.
Believe...
Call....
Whosoever believes...

It is left up to the individual person to make a decision for Christ. He has that choice. God gave it to him. God never forces a person to come to Christ. He gives him the choice.

Again, we agree! BOTH Cals and Arms affirm that God allows each person that does get saved to make an individual decision to trust in Christ for salvation!

 

[DHK]

Again, we agree! BOTH Cals and Arms affirm that God allows each person that does get saved to make an individual decision to trust in Christ for salvation!

And do you believe that regeneration and salvation take place at the same time?

 

[convicted1]

And do you believe that regeneration and salvation take place at the same time?

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I say they do. I have always thought they were interchangeable terms, IOW, meaning the same thing, but different words. The more I think about it, the more I think one(regeneration) brings about the other(salvation) at precisely the same time.

 

[convicted1]

The actual salvation moment is when a person puts their faith in Christ, and Christ saves them. It is Christ that saves.

(((((AMEN)))))!!!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

I absolutely agree with you. The problem is that DHK and others try to suggest that salvation is God's part but repentance is ours. I think that Eph 2:8-9 refutes that.

You know, Brother, this is one thing that has been really bugging me, I mean seriously. I have always thought that repentance was something that we had to do, once the Godly sorrow had been set up in ones life. Look at Luke 13:3,5 where Jesus told them, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." But, I also believe that faith is a gift of God, and Jesus said that we would die in our sins except we believe. This has gotten me to doing some deep pondering on the whole salvation process. Now, if repentance is on our part, it was God that led us there through the Godly sorrow(which is where I think it goes), so He gets all the glory for it anyways.

However, I am happy to agree that salvation is all of grace, so long as you do not try to detatch faith from salvation.

I agree with this statement altogether. No grace=no salvation; no faith=no salvation.

So, I may be on the fence about repentence being a gift of God(but I am really trying to study this further), I am in complete agreement with you on faith being a gift of God.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Luke2427]

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I say they do. I have always thought they were interchangeable terms, IOW, meaning the same thing, but different words. The more I think about it, the more I think one(regeneration) brings about the other(salvation) at precisely the same time.

This is wrong as I have clearly shown you in John 3 and I John 5:1 and I Corinthians 2 and several other passages of Scripture.

It is that VERY fact that this is what you have always thought that is keeping you from seeing the truth of the matter.

 

[kyredneck]

..... Look at Luke 13:3,5 where Jesus told them, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."....

....this is a common misapplication of this passage, and one which the simple application of the 'Preterist Modifier' corrects. Christ, as 'the Prophet', is speaking [only] "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" here.

Note the words “in like manner” and “likewise” in vv. 3 & 5.

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish Lu 13

The phrases “in like manner” and “likewise” are in reference to the violence of war, which indeed came to pass, and not to random incidents of chance. My 'amplification' of the passage:

1 Now there were some present at that very season who told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood [Pilate's soldiers] had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And he answered and said unto them, Think ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they have suffered these things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner [by the sword] perish [in the wrath that is to come upon this generation; i.e. the war of AD 66-70]
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the [soldiers garrisoned in the tower in Siloam] fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise [by the sword] perish [in the wrath that is to come upon this generation; i.e. the war of AD 66-70] Lu 13

(see: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=64879 )

 

[revmwc]

And do you believe that regeneration and salvation take place at the same time?

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

We turned from the things seen in verse 3 to Christ and His way, not by our works of Righteousness but by regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. The Human Spirit is renewed by the Holy Spirit. We are justified by Grace at Salvation, become heirs to the hope of eternal life. Verse 8 says because of our beliefe all happens when we believe (i.e at the time of Faith) in Christ.

 

[percho]

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I say they do. I have always thought they were interchangeable terms, IOW, meaning the same thing, but different words. The more I think about it, the more I think one(regeneration) brings about the other(salvation) at precisely the same time.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Does? Became the author of. Mean, He was the beginner of, or all cause of eternal salvation?
Did this become a true statement at a precise moment in time?
Was it at a precise moment in time that he became the all cause of?

Was this moment regeneration?