Ephesians 2:8-9

[percho]

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

We turned from the things seen in verse 3 to Christ and His way, not by our works of Righteousness but by regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. The Human Spirit is renewed by the Holy Spirit. We are justified by Grace at Salvation, become heirs to the hope of eternal life. Verse 8 says because of our beliefe all happens when we believe (i.e at the time of Faith) in Christ.

Could you name five things that would be construed as the above in bold?

 

[DHK]

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Does? Became the author of. Mean, He was the beginner of, or all cause of eternal salvation?
Did this become a true statement at a precise moment in time?
Was it at a precise moment in time that he became the all cause of?

Was this moment regeneration?

If regeneration and salvation take place at the same time then the statement that Christ is the author of our salvation makes far more sense. If regeneration takes place before salvation the statement makes no sense at all. What? Christ is the author of salvation but not of regeneration? Ridiculous! You have made a needless dichotomy in salvation. Regeneration becomes some mystical new age experience that no one knows when or where it happens, or how long before salvation it happens. For all that we know it could happen to some tribal figure in Africa who has never heard the gospel, never will, and will die unsaved, but regenerated. Why? Because faith comes through hearing and hearing through the word of God. Thus they both must take place at the same time.

 

[percho]

If regeneration and salvation take place at the same time then the statement that Christ is the author of our salvation makes far more sense. If regeneration takes place before salvation the statement makes no sense at all. What? Christ is the author of salvation but not of regeneration? Ridiculous! You have made a needless dichotomy in salvation. Regeneration becomes some mystical new age experience that no one knows when or where it happens, or how long before salvation it happens. For all that we know it could happen to some tribal figure in Africa who has never heard the gospel, never will, and will die unsaved, but regenerated. Why? Because faith comes through hearing and hearing through the word of God. Thus they both must take place at the same time.

Did he become the author of, at the same time/moment he became a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec?

 

[DHK]

Did he become the author of, at the same time/moment he became a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec?

He became the author of our (my) salvation. That didn't happen until I trusted him as my Savior. At that time I became his child, an heir of God, a joint heir of Jesus Christ, sealed unto the day of salvation, received the gift of salvation and of eternal life and of forgiveness of sins--past, present and future. He became the author of MY salvation.

I know whom I have believed and persuaded that He will keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I believe many people are confused on this subject and perhaps it should be explained better. Repentance and faith are two sides of one coin. One repents when he puts faith in Christ. One cannot put faith in Christ without repenting. If one was rebelling against Christ and then puts faith in Christ, has he not just repented? Has his mind and attitude toward God just changed? If the person has not changed; if he has not become a new creature in Christ then is he a Christian?

The answer to the last question is, "No." Repentance and faith are, as it were, the two legs on which we walk into the kingdom of God. But that does not mean that the two things are synonymous. 'Repentance' does indeed signify a change of direction, but it is possible to turn from sin to good (or at least better) works, rather than turning to Christ (eg. Luke 17:3, 4). The locus classicus for Paul's preaching on repentance is Acts 26:20: 'But (I) declared first to those in Damscus and Jerusalem, and throughout all the regions of Judea, and to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.' Paul goes on (vs 22-3) to speak about his preaching of Christ, so the 'turn to God' must mean turning to God through Christ. [I might add that this verse also shows that Paul's ministry to the Jews and to the Gentiles was just the same as that of the Lord Jesus- 'repent and believe'- Mark 1:15]

Now if repentance included turning to God, Paul need not have mentioned it. The fact that he did shows that the two things are not synonymous.

I believe in repentance. But I don't believe it is the same thing that the majority of preachers define it today--repenting from your sins. Repentance is always toward God, not from sins. It is a change of mind toward God.

Repentance is always turning from sins. True Christian repentance is a turning away from sins towards Christ. '....And how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven' (1Thes 1:9-10).

Steve

 

[JesusFan]

God has called many who do not come. ("Many are called, few are chosen.")

He hold out his hands to obstantant men, in patience:

"But concerning Israel he says, 'All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.'" - Rom 10:21

He longs to gather them:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." - Matt 23:37

He draws all men to himself! (John 12:32)

All those that the Father has chosen to Give Him will indeed come to Him and get saved!

Agreed, but its not because they are born unable to come otherwise they'd have a good excuse for not coming. They stay because they have freely chosen to resist the clearly seen and understood revelation of God. They stand without excuse!

regardless IF they can 'freely" come to God or not, all will still be held accountible to God!

The bible never says men are born hardened, but that only after they rebel continually that they will GROW or BECOME hardened as a result of their own choice to resist God's clear revelation of Himself. They perish because THEY refused God, not because God has refused them!!!

Actually, all of us are born sinners, so all would be automatically "hard" against God and His ways... Agree that persistant sinning hardens further, but born in that state!


Please re-read through that passage and he clearly speaks of two folds that must be brought in. The first is the remnant of Israel and the next is those who believe through their message.

Believes referring to the Body of Christ/Church to come , that include in the Future both jews/Gentiles, not referring to JUST those of His times...

 

[JesusFan]

And do you believe that regeneration and salvation take place at the same time?

yes, as the work of God internally by the HS gets the person in the condition able to freely repond by faith in jesus Christ

Like repentance/faith flip sides of same coin!

 

[DHK]

The answer to the last question is, "No." Repentance and faith are, as it were, the two legs on which we walk into the kingdom of God. But that does not mean that the two things are synonymous.

I didn't say they are synonymous. They take place at the same time. One is the flip side of the other. You can't have one without the other.

'Repentance' does indeed signify a change of direction, but it is possible to turn from sin to good (or at least better) works, rather than turning to Christ (eg. Luke 17:3, 4).

When it is connected with faith in Christ, then the object of one's faith remains Christ. The definition of repentance is a change of attitude toward God, ie., the God of the Bible--Jesus Christ. I never said anything about a turning to or from works. It is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God.

The locus classicus for Paul's preaching on repentance is Acts 26:20: 'But (I) declared first to those in Damscus and Jerusalem, and throughout all the regions of Judea, and to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.' Paul goes on (vs 22-3) to speak about his preaching of Christ, so the 'turn to God' must mean turning to God through Christ. [I might add that this verse also shows that Paul's ministry to the Jews and to the Gentiles was just the same as that of the Lord Jesus- 'repent and believe'- Mark 1:15]

Now if repentance included turning to God, Paul need not have mentioned it. The fact that he did shows that the two things are not synonymous.

Repentance is always turning from sins. True Christian repentance is a turning away from sins towards Christ. '....And how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven' (1Thes 1:9-10).

Steve

Acts 26:20 is simply a summary of his testimony. It does speak of a turning toward God. Repentance in the NT is never a turning from sins. This is absurd. Tell me, as an adult, can you remember all your sins, let alone repent of each one of them. It is not repenting of your sins. The Bible does not teach that; your tradition does.

Here is what the Bible teaches about repentance:

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11:18)

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)


Repentance is toward God; it does not look behind but rather toward. Notice in Acts 20:21 it is connected with faith toward Christ as well. The two are connected.
Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude to God. That is what happens when one puts their faith in Christ. They have a change of attitude toward God.

 

[percho]

He became the author of our (my) salvation. That didn't happen until I trusted him as my Savior. At that time I became his child, an heir of God, a joint heir of Jesus Christ, sealed unto the day of salvation, received the gift of salvation and of eternal life and of forgiveness of sins--past, present and future. He became the author of MY salvation.

I know whom I have believed and persuaded that He will keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

For you to be saved, did this have to happen before you had anything for you to put your trust in?

Exactly when did that in bold take place?

When that took place was he then qualified as the author of your eternal salvation? -----Yes or No.

Was mankind now washed clean from his sins? -----OR

Did anything else absolutely have to take place for mankind to have an author of eternal salvation for him to put his trust in?


For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


I challenge each of you who read this post to answer from scripture.

Was it the resurrection of Jesus the Christ that allowed us to be cleansed by his shed blood? Shall we not, be saved by the washing of His, Jesus's regeneration?

Does Romans 5:10 say the exact same thing?
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Is this or is this not resurrected life?

Titus 3:5 is stating why you are saved. Mercy. And what God the Son and God the Father did to bring salvation to mankind.

Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

I know you do not believe this is how it happened, but if it did not happen as stated above he would still be dead today and there would not have been an author of eternal salvation for anyone. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world and the following promise was made before time began, upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,

The only ones there were the Word and God and one was destined to die.

 

[DHK]

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

For you to be saved, did this have to happen before you had anything for you to put your trust in?

Exactly when did that in bold take place?

A. God made time for man. In time that happened ca. 4 B.C.
B. Outside of time, he was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

When that took place was he then qualified as the author of your eternal salvation? -----Yes or No.

Qualify your question as I qualified my answer.
According to answer A., he was qualified as the author of my salvation when he paid the full payment of my sins in ca. 29 A.D.

Was mankind now washed clean from his sins? -----OR

Did anything else absolutely have to take place for mankind to have an author of eternal salvation for him to put his trust in?

All of mankind has never been washed clean from their sins. Man (any man) must appropriate the payment, that blood that was shed, by faith, your faith. You must trust Christ as your Savior. It is evident that not everyone in the world does this. Thus, though Christ paid the penalty for all the sins of all the people in the world, not all have received that gift of eternal life or that payment of the penalty for the sins that they have committed.

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

The essence of the gospel--the death, burial and resurrection took place in 29 A.D. It was then that he made payment for the crimes that we, and each one of us individually committed.

I challenge each of you who read this post to answer from scripture.

Was it the resurrection of Jesus the Christ that allowed us to be cleansed by his shed blood? Shall we not, be saved by the washing of His, Jesus's regeneration?

What do you mean "Jesus regeneration"? He never had to be saved. Regenerated? He is God and needed nothing. He gave his life willingly that we might be saved.

Does Romans 5:10 say the exact same thing?
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Is this or is this not resurrected life?

Yes, it is his resurrected life. We serve a risen Savior. Because he lives, we also live.

Titus 3:5 is stating why you are saved. Mercy. And what God the Son and God the Father did to bring salvation to mankind.

No. "By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"; also "not by our own works of righteousness."
His mercy is a small part of it. His grace is even greater. But it is not as mystical as the Calvinist makes it out to be. In order for it to happen it must involve the word of God, for only through the Word of God is the spirit cleansed (John 15:3). The Holy Spirit works through His Word to bring forth the new birth.

Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

I know you do not believe this is how it happened, but if it did not happen as stated above he would still be dead today and there would not have been an author of eternal salvation for anyone. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world and the following promise was made before time began, upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,

The only ones there were the Word and God and one was destined to die.

One need not to be philosophical here.
God created time for man. Therefore time becomes essential for man, and man uses time. God even gave the Hebrews a calendar and ordered them to follow it.
When we read about the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, that is a stated truth, but we don't live our lives outside the realm of time where God lives His. We live inside of the realm of time, and our answers related to salvation must be given in relation to time. Otherwise you are just giving speculative philosophical and hypothetical statements. Those are the type of things that Paul commanded us to stay away from.

 

[convicted1]

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Does? Became the author of. Mean, He was the beginner of, or all cause of eternal salvation?
Did this become a true statement at a precise moment in time?
Was it at a precise moment in time that he became the all cause of?

Was this moment regeneration?

Regenration means "new birth", "life consecrated unto God", so then one does have a "new life" at this moment it takes place, correct? Now here is what Jesus says about what gives "life" to an individual:

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

So, it is the flesh and blood(spiritual flesh and blood), that brings forth life. This is when regeneration takes place, at the same time of salvation.

Now, I have read on here many times that one is regenerated(given life to believe) to be able to hear God. Jesus sure didn't advocate this. Here is what He said about it:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

So, Jesus preached the complete opposite of what some of trying to say on here. Jesus plainly stated that they "which hear", shall live. He didn't say those that "live shall hear". Hearing is what brings about the "new birth", not the "new birth", brings about the hearing of the Word.



1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

This passage right here, I do not think either side would deny. But to say that one is regenerated and not saved solely by using this passage, is seriously begging the question. We are born of God by Grace through faith. This is talking about salvation, and that through our faith(given by Him, BTW), we obtain salvation. In verse five, it says that we have overcome the world by our faith.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Again, this is talking about salvation, which has regeneration envolved in the process. It say here that they are born of God, and knoweth God. How can you know God, unless you are saved?? We can have a "head knowledge" of Him, but until it comes from/through the heart, we do not know Him intimately as a Father/son.

i am I AM'S!!

Willis

 

[percho]

Regenration means "new birth", "life consecrated unto God", so then one does have a "new life" at this moment it takes place, correct? Now here is what Jesus says about what gives "life" to an individual:

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

So, it is the flesh and blood(spiritual flesh and blood), that brings forth life. This is when regeneration takes place, at the same time of salvation.

Now, I have read on here many times that one is regenerated(given life to believe) to be able to hear God. Jesus sure didn't advocate this. Here is what He said about it:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

So, Jesus preached the complete opposite of what some of trying to say on here. Jesus plainly stated that they "which hear", shall live. He didn't say those that "live shall hear". Hearing is what brings about the "new birth", not the "new birth", brings about the hearing of the Word.



1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

This passage right here, I do not think either side would deny. But to say that one is regenerated and not saved solely by using this passage, is seriously begging the question. We are born of God by Grace through faith. This is talking about salvation, and that through our faith(given by Him, BTW), we obtain salvation. In verse five, it says that we have overcome the world by our faith.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Again, this is talking about salvation, which has regeneration envolved in the process. It say here that they are born of God, and knoweth God. How can you know God, unless you are saved?? We can have a "head knowledge" of Him, but until it comes from/through the heart, we do not know Him intimately as a Father/son.

i am I AM'S!!

Willis

Beginning on the day of Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus until this present moment and beyond for all who have been and will be "born again" and are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, whether they be alive or dead, will they still have to be made in a better form and condition in order to inherit the kingdom of God?

If anything about them is being made better then they are being regenerated again. How many times does one have to be regenerated?

Regenerate---1. to effect a complete moral reform in.
2.
to re-create, reconstitute, or make over, especially in a better form or condition.
3.
to revive or produce anew; bring into existence again.

Are the following in a better form or condition that they were when born from their mothers?
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Was this prayer of the Son of Man, Jesus himself answered in the affirmative
after he was made alive again and was it a higher state than he had from the womb of Mary his mother?
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Was he resurrected as a man in a higher state than the man he was before his death?

The word translated regeneration is used twice in scripture and in neither is it relative to the spiritual condition of anything before it.