Ephesians 2:8-9

[Bob Alkire]

To what does "that" refer? It is a neuter pronoun it evidently does not refer to grace or faith both of which are feminine in gender in the Greek text. I believe it refers to the whole preceding clause that describes salvation. Salvation (eternal life) is not of oneself; it is the gift of God (cf. John 4:10), lest anyone should boast.

 

[quantumfaith]

To what does "that" refer? It is a neuter pronoun it evidently does not refer to grace or faith both of which are feminine in gender in the Greek text. I believe it refers to the whole preceding clause that describes salvation. Salvation (eternal life) is not of oneself; it is the gift of God (cf. John 4:10), lest anyone should boast.

Like your "analysis". I think it indeed satisfies the principle of Occam's Razor.

 

[WestminsterMan]

I agree....I think. Salvation is because of grace, but through faith.

Yes! And... grace is something with which the believer must cooperate.


WM

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes! And... grace is something with which the believer must cooperate.


WM

By that do you mean, that our expression of faith is the cooperation with God's grace?

 

[WestminsterMan]

By that do you mean, that our expression of faith is the cooperation with God's grace?

Precisely.

WM

 

[DHK]

I absolutely agree with you. The problem is that DHK and others try to suggest that salvation is God's part but repentance is ours. I think that Eph 2:8-9 refutes that.

Actually I believe something quite a bit different than that.
Here is a challenge.
Show me in the epistles (not the gospels or Acts), but just the epistles, where repentance is part of the gospel message. The epistles are doctrinal books. The books of the NT preceding them are historical books. Be that as it may you should be able to find the gospel in every book of the NT if not the Bible, shouldn't you? And if so, it shouldn't be hard to find repentance connected to the gospel in the epistles, if it is. But I don't believe you can, and there is a good reason why.

 

[JesusFan]

On another thread http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72661&page=6 DHK and I had a most interesting discussion over whether and to what extent faith is a gift of God.

I cited three verses: Acts 11:16; 16:14, and Eph 2:8-9. Due to the way the thread galloped onward, we didn't really get to discuss any of these texts, but I want particularly to look at the last one.

Eph 2:8-9 (it is helpful to read vs 1-9 to get the context). 'For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.'

The question is, what is it that is ‘not of yourselves’? As I look at it in the English, it seems very clear to me. 'That' refers back to 'faith' which is the nearest antecedent. That would normally be the case in Greek also. However, this is what DHK said.

There are a few problems with this view.
1. If faith is not something that we work up in ourselves and it is not the gift of God, where does it come from? Who gives it to us?
2. The word 'salvation' does not appear in the text.
3. The text does not tell us that we are saved 'by grace through grace’ as DHK says above. The text tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. It is God's grace that saves us on account of our faith (Gk. dia tes pisteos) and that not of ourselves.

So what is Grace? Every dictionary and commentary will tell you that it is the unmerited favour of God. So to say that we are saved by grace and that not of ourselves is a tautology, a redundancy, a needless repetition. Grace by definition is not of ourselves, so there is no need for Paul to tell us that. Therefore, by process of elimination, it can only be faith which Paul is telling us is not of ourselves but the gift of God.

So how is faith the gift of God? DHK has said repeatedly that we are not ‘injected with faith’ and that it is we who have to believe. In this he is quite right. I have searched for an analogy to explain how faith comes to us and the best I can do is to compare it with a parent giving pocket money to a child. Unless the child receives the money from his parent, he can buy nothing. But the parent does not ‘inject’ the child with sweets, comics or whatever, nor does he buy them on behalf of the child; the child does that for himself when he receives his allowance. In the same way, God does not inject us with faith in order to convert us, nor does He believe for us. Rather He puts His Holy Spirit within us, melting our cold, hard hearts, causing us to know our sinful state and leading us irresistibly (Jer 31:3) to trust in Christ for salvation (Ezek 36:25-27; Zech 12:10; Eph 2:5; Titus 3:4-6).

However, it is clear that He does not do this for everyone, but only for His elect (Rom 9:18). He has decreed salvation for a vast crowd of people that no man may number (Rev 7:9ff). These were given to the Son to redeem, and He has redeemed them all (John 17:2 etc.). The gathering of His elect is through the preaching of the word to all men and women (James 1:18). Whoever responds in repentance and faith will be saved, but their salvation is not of themselves, it is the gift of God who has opened their hearts and irresistibly drawn them to believe (John 6:44).

Steve

very good!
Someone who took the time to actually read the bible, and interprete accordingly!

 

[JesusFan]

Actually I believe something quite a bit different than that.
Here is a challenge.
Show me in the epistles (not the gospels or Acts), but just the epistles, where repentance is part of the gospel message. The epistles are doctrinal books. The books of the NT preceding them are historical books. Be that as it may you should be able to find the gospel in every book of the NT if not the Bible, shouldn't you? And if so, it shouldn't be hard to find repentance connected to the gospel in the epistles, if it is. But I don't believe you can, and there is a good reason why.

IF we can find in the NT scriptures where one of the Apostles describe it without actualing using that exact word, but describing it, would that count?

Can you show me a verse where actual word Bible or trinity is used then?

 

[percho]

You are the only one I have heard that suggested that, so I checked it out. The TR does have a definite article, but the begs the question, why didn't the KJV translators translate it? I looked at a number of translations and couldn't find one that translated it "the faith." Of course the Critical Text omits the definite article altogether.
Here is what Jamieson, Faucett and Brown say:

I was more interested that Young did not translate it for he usually does stay literal, however not always.

Also there was much more to my post than the word, the. I understand you do not agree with what I posted, neither will anyone else including Iron but I still say, Please show from the word of God what is incorrect or out of context.

 

[DHK]

IF we can find in the NT scriptures where one of the Apostles describe it without actualing using that exact word, but describing it, would that count?

Can you show me a verse where actual word Bible or trinity is used then?

That is irrelevant. I can't show you a verse where theology is used either.
But I can tell you this, the OT concept of repentance (like John was preaching) is not part of the gospel message. If you can show me that it is, be my guest.

 

[DHK]

very good!
Someone who took the time to actually read the bible, and interprete accordingly!

JF this is not much different than what I have been saying all along except for the last paragraph where he says that Jesus died only for the elect. Most of what he said I have been posting repeatedly and others have been disagreeing with me.

 

[revmwc]

That is irrelevant. I can't show you a verse where theology is used either.
But I can tell you this, the OT concept of repentance (like John was preaching) is not part of the gospel message. If you can show me that it is, be my guest.

2 Peter 3: 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter connects repentence to not perishing, if we repent then we shall not perish.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Gods goodness, forbearance and longsuffering lead to repentence. Paul tells us.

Paul stated:2 Corinthians 7: 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Godly sorrow works repentence which leads to salvation.

Repentence means to have a change of mind or a turning from something. The unbeliever turns from his attitude of rejecting Christ to that of accepting Christ. Therefore repentence is a part of faith in that sense.

 

[JesusFan]

JF this is not much different than what I have been saying all along except for the last paragraph where he says that Jesus died only for the elect. Most of what he said I have been posting repeatedly and others have been disagreeing with me.

How would you interprete than 2 Timothy 2:24-26?

IF God desires to grant unto us Godly repentance than?

 

[DHK]

2 Peter 3: 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is a stated desire of God.
Secondly, unlike the OT message of John the Baptist, God does not say we should repent from anything. ..."that we should come to repentance," is looking forward to repentance, not repentance from.

Peter connects repentence to not perishing, if we repent then we shall not perish.

I don't believe he does.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Gods goodness, forbearance and longsuffering lead to repentence. Paul tells us.

The context is the Jews. The topic is "the goodness of God." It is the goodness of God which leads one to repentance. The context is not the gospel. Paul is not speaking of the gospel here. He is speaking of the hypocrisy of the Jew who thinks he is better than the Gentile.

Paul stated:2 Corinthians 7: 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

This is spoken to believers and has nothing to do with unbelievers. It is repentance over one particular sin that was mentioned in 1Cor.5. There is no gospel here.

Godly sorrow works repentence which leads to salvation.

The salvation spoken of is a physical salvation in the context. Had he not repented (a believer) it is very likely that God would have taken him out of this life for shaming the name of Christ. It is a lesson to us not to continue on in such sin. The chastisement of the Lord can be very severe even unto death. It was so in 1Cor.11:30. ..."and many of you sleep (are dead)."

Repentence means to have a change of mind or a turning from something. The unbeliever turns from his attitude of rejecting Christ to that of accepting Christ. Therefore repentence is a part of faith in that sense.

That is correct.

Repentance is the flip side of faith. Therefore it doesn't need to be mentioned. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Paul never mentioned repentance. He didn't have to. Inherent in believing (having faith) was a change of mind toward God. At one time he was rebellious toward God. The he was saved, or put his faith in Christ as Lord. His mind was changed; his attitude toward God was changed. If one's mind and attitude toward God is changed that is repentance. Now, instead of being rebellious Christ is Lord and he is obedient to him. His attitude is one of submission to Christ as Lord. Repentance doesn't have to be mentioned. It takes place at the same time as putting one's faith in Christ, does. It is the flip side of faith. You can't have faith in Christ, and not repent at the same time.

 

[JesusFan]

This is a stated desire of God.
Secondly, unlike the OT message of John the Baptist, God does not say we should repent from anything. ..."that we should come to repentance," is looking forward to repentance, not repentance from.

I don't believe he does.

The context is the Jews. The topic is "the goodness of God." It is the goodness of God which leads one to repentance. The context is not the gospel. Paul is not speaking of the gospel here. He is speaking of the hypocrisy of the Jew who thinks he is better than the Gentile.

This is spoken to believers and has nothing to do with unbelievers. It is repentance over one particular sin that was mentioned in 1Cor.5. There is no gospel here.

The salvation spoken of is a physical salvation in the context. Had he not repented (a believer) it is very likely that God would have taken him out of this life for shaming the name of Christ. It is a lesson to us not to continue on in such sin. The chastisement of the Lord can be very severe even unto death. It was so in 1Cor.11:30. ..."and many of you sleep (are dead)."

That is correct.

Repentance is the flip side of faith. Therefore it doesn't need to be mentioned. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Paul never mentioned repentance. He didn't have to. Inherent in believing (having faith) was a change of mind toward God. At one time he was rebellious toward God. The he was saved, or put his faith in Christ as Lord. His mind was changed; his attitude toward God was changed. If one's mind and attitude toward God is changed that is repentance. Now, instead of being rebellious Christ is Lord and he is obedient to him. His attitude is one of submission to Christ as Lord. Repentance doesn't have to be mentioned. It takes place at the same time as putting one's faith in Christ, does. It is the flip side of faith. You can't have faith in Christ, and not repent at the same time.

isn't it true though that we cannot fulfill this requirement by god in order to get saved?

The repentance to believe in Jesus, is like the faith, gifts of God to unregenerate and spiritually dead man?

IF God asked the jews to repent and believe, why would we aslo not be included in that demand?

 

[JesusFan]

JF this is not much different than what I have been saying all along except for the last paragraph where he says that Jesus died only for the elect. Most of what he said I have been posting repeatedly and others have been disagreeing with me.

But don't you also say that we can in ourselves respond to and place faith in jesus by JUST hearing the Gospel, without God doing "something" else to change us to be able to actually respond?

 

[DHK]

But don't you also say that we can in ourselves respond to and place faith in jesus by JUST hearing the Gospel, without God doing "something" else to change us to be able to actually respond?

The Holy Spirit works through His Word.
The Holy Spirit also came into the world to convict the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment.
It is the Holy Spirit that convicts a person of sin and shows him that he is a sinner in need of a Savior. He does that through the, usually through a messenger of the Word. Remember Philip and the Eunuch. Philip immediately began at the same Scripture and preached unto him Christ. The eunuch responded in faith. If thou believest thou mayest.
"I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
It was the Word that opened his heart. The Holy Spirit was at work. But he works primarily through the Word of God.

 

[DHK]

isn't it true though that we cannot fulfill this requirement by god in order to get saved?

The repentance to believe in Jesus, is like the faith, gifts of God to unregenerate and spiritually dead man?

IF God asked the jews to repent and believe, why would we aslo not be included in that demand?

There is no comparison. The Jews were already God's elect.

God does not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate. How can he? That would be against his nature to do so? Did you ever see an unsaved person in the NT with the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, the gift of being an apostle, etc. Does God call the unsaved and give them spiritual gifts while they are still yet unsaved? Does that really make sense?

 

[Bob Alkire]

Like your "analysis". I think it indeed satisfies the principle of Occam's Razor.

Thanks, my friend, now if I can get my wife to like my analysis.

 

[JesusFan]

The Holy Spirit works through His Word.
The Holy Spirit also came into the world to convict the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment.
It is the Holy Spirit that convicts a person of sin and shows him that he is a sinner in need of a Savior. He does that through the, usually through a messenger of the Word. Remember Philip and the Eunuch. Philip immediately began at the same Scripture and preached unto him Christ. The eunuch responded in faith. If thou believest thou mayest.
"I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
It was the Word that opened his heart. The Holy Spirit was at work. But he works primarily through the Word of God.

We agree on all of that, just difference is that we believe bible teaches that HS works though the Gospel ONLY to Gods elect, you would say through "all peoples!"