Ephesians 2:8-9

To what does "that" refer? It is a neuter pronoun it evidently does not refer to grace or faith both of which are feminine in gender in the Greek text. I believe it refers to the whole preceding clause that describes salvation. Salvation (eternal life) is not of oneself; it is the gift of God (cf. John 4:10), lest anyone should boast.

 

Like your "analysis". I think it indeed satisfies the principle of Occam's Razor.

 

Yes! And... grace is something with which the believer must cooperate.


WM

 

By that do you mean, that our expression of faith is the cooperation with God's grace?

 

Precisely.

WM

 

Actually I believe something quite a bit different than that.
Here is a challenge.
Show me in the epistles (not the gospels or Acts), but just the epistles, where repentance is part of the gospel message. The epistles are doctrinal books. The books of the NT preceding them are historical books. Be that as it may you should be able to find the gospel in every book of the NT if not the Bible, shouldn't you? And if so, it shouldn't be hard to find repentance connected to the gospel in the epistles, if it is. But I don't believe you can, and there is a good reason why.

 

very good!
Someone who took the time to actually read the bible, and interprete accordingly!

 

IF we can find in the NT scriptures where one of the Apostles describe it without actualing using that exact word, but describing it, would that count?

Can you show me a verse where actual word Bible or trinity is used then?

 

I was more interested that Young did not translate it for he usually does stay literal, however not always.

Also there was much more to my post than the word, the. I understand you do not agree with what I posted, neither will anyone else including Iron but I still say, Please show from the word of God what is incorrect or out of context.

 

That is irrelevant. I can't show you a verse where theology is used either.
But I can tell you this, the OT concept of repentance (like John was preaching) is not part of the gospel message. If you can show me that it is, be my guest.

 

JF this is not much different than what I have been saying all along except for the last paragraph where he says that Jesus died only for the elect. Most of what he said I have been posting repeatedly and others have been disagreeing with me.

 

2 Peter 3: 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter connects repentence to not perishing, if we repent then we shall not perish.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Gods goodness, forbearance and longsuffering lead to repentence. Paul tells us.

Paul stated:2 Corinthians 7: 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Godly sorrow works repentence which leads to salvation.

Repentence means to have a change of mind or a turning from something. The unbeliever turns from his attitude of rejecting Christ to that of accepting Christ. Therefore repentence is a part of faith in that sense.

 

How would you interprete than 2 Timothy 2:24-26?

IF God desires to grant unto us Godly repentance than?

 

This is a stated desire of God.
Secondly, unlike the OT message of John the Baptist, God does not say we should repent from anything. ..."that we should come to repentance," is looking forward to repentance, not repentance from.

I don't believe he does.

The context is the Jews. The topic is "the goodness of God." It is the goodness of God which leads one to repentance. The context is not the gospel. Paul is not speaking of the gospel here. He is speaking of the hypocrisy of the Jew who thinks he is better than the Gentile.

This is spoken to believers and has nothing to do with unbelievers. It is repentance over one particular sin that was mentioned in 1Cor.5. There is no gospel here.

The salvation spoken of is a physical salvation in the context. Had he not repented (a believer) it is very likely that God would have taken him out of this life for shaming the name of Christ. It is a lesson to us not to continue on in such sin. The chastisement of the Lord can be very severe even unto death. It was so in 1Cor.11:30. ..."and many of you sleep (are dead)."

That is correct.

Repentance is the flip side of faith. Therefore it doesn't need to be mentioned. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Paul never mentioned repentance. He didn't have to. Inherent in believing (having faith) was a change of mind toward God. At one time he was rebellious toward God. The he was saved, or put his faith in Christ as Lord. His mind was changed; his attitude toward God was changed. If one's mind and attitude toward God is changed that is repentance. Now, instead of being rebellious Christ is Lord and he is obedient to him. His attitude is one of submission to Christ as Lord. Repentance doesn't have to be mentioned. It takes place at the same time as putting one's faith in Christ, does. It is the flip side of faith. You can't have faith in Christ, and not repent at the same time.

 

isn't it true though that we cannot fulfill this requirement by god in order to get saved?

The repentance to believe in Jesus, is like the faith, gifts of God to unregenerate and spiritually dead man?

IF God asked the jews to repent and believe, why would we aslo not be included in that demand?

 

But don't you also say that we can in ourselves respond to and place faith in jesus by JUST hearing the Gospel, without God doing "something" else to change us to be able to actually respond?

 

The Holy Spirit works through His Word.
The Holy Spirit also came into the world to convict the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment.
It is the Holy Spirit that convicts a person of sin and shows him that he is a sinner in need of a Savior. He does that through the, usually through a messenger of the Word. Remember Philip and the Eunuch. Philip immediately began at the same Scripture and preached unto him Christ. The eunuch responded in faith. If thou believest thou mayest.
"I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
It was the Word that opened his heart. The Holy Spirit was at work. But he works primarily through the Word of God.

 

There is no comparison. The Jews were already God's elect.

God does not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate. How can he? That would be against his nature to do so? Did you ever see an unsaved person in the NT with the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, the gift of being an apostle, etc. Does God call the unsaved and give them spiritual gifts while they are still yet unsaved? Does that really make sense?

 

Thanks, my friend, now if I can get my wife to like my analysis.

 

We agree on all of that, just difference is that we believe bible teaches that HS works though the Gospel ONLY to Gods elect, you would say through "all peoples!"