Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[1689Dave]

I believe every popular eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, (who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years).


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.


The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.


The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. Creating a physical "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.


Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.


But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.


Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical.

Really?? Not this amillennialist! What book on Amillennialism do you know of that teaches such a thing.

And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.

This has more to do with Erastianism and state churches than with eschatology.

 

[1689Dave]

Really?? Not this amillennialist! What book on Amillennialism do you know of that teaches such a thing.

You are a type of Amillennialist because of separation of Church and State laws. Had you lived under Rome, the Lutheran States, or Reformed States you would be the same as they. Unless you believe Christ's kingdom is purely spiritual and not of this world.

 

[tyndale1946]

I believe that Jesus will return, resurrect his saint and take them home to glory... The rapture, the 1,000 year reign and all the various other views, were never taught in my church... That being said I'm truly satisfied in my belief and agree Christ Kingdom is purely Spiritual... You will find all views on here and brethren willing to defend them... I will just watch from the sideline as this discussion has been hashed and rehashed since I joined the BB many, many, years ago... You forgot the Preterist?... You wouldn't happen to be one would you?.. Just checking... Brother Glen

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Obviously Christ's kingdom is Spirit, God is a spirit..But you have to ignore large sections of scripture and twist many passages to say that the Spiritual Kingdom of God will never be manifested in a Physical kingdom as well...

There is a physical kingdom coming. the bible teaches it.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I'm historic premellennialist. Just because the Kingdom is among us spiritually for now, does not mean His Kingdom will not come to and His will not be done on earth as it is in heaven.

One day Jesus returns the bible tells us. One day Jesus rules the earth we are told.

To not believe in a physical kingdom is for Jesus to never get a kingdom, for His will never to be done on earth as it is in heaven, and for the Father's Kingdom never come with His Son.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You are a type of Amillennialist because of separation of Church and State laws. Had you lived under Rome, the Lutheran States, or Reformed States you would be the same as they. Unless you believe Christ's kingdom is purely spiritual and not of this world.

I am British and we do not have separation of Church and State in the same way it is in the USA. However, I am unaware of any Amillennialist who believes that Christ's physical kingdom is here now

There will be a physical kingdom in the new heaven and new earth when the saints are resurrected with physical resurrection bodies (1689 Confession 31:2-3).

 

[John of Japan]

I believe every popular eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, (who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years).

And I believe that you do not understand dispensational premillennial theology. It does not "teach the Kingdom of God is physical" except in the sense that Heaven is physical (and it is). It teaches that the throne of David is physical. Christ is already king of the Kingdom of God. However, during the millennium He will reign on David's throne. That is a huge difference.

Alva McClain's book, The Greatness of the Kingdom, is the classic on the dispensational doctrine of the kingdom. He wrote, "That the throne in heaven, to which Christ ascended and where He now sits, cannot be equated with the throne of David, should need no argument, for the two are never so identified in Scriptures (cf. Rev. 3:21). And Peter distinguishes between them in Acts 2:30 with 34" (p. 401).

 

[1689Dave]

And I believe that you do not understand dispensational premillennial theology. It does not "teach the Kingdom of God is physical" except in the sense that Heaven is physical (and it is). It teaches that the throne of David is physical. Christ is already king of the Kingdom of God. However, during the millennium He will reign on David's throne. That is a huge difference.

Alva McClain's book, The Greatness of the Kingdom, is the classic on the dispensational doctrine of the kingdom. He wrote, "That the throne in heaven, to which Christ ascended and where He now sits, cannot be equated with the throne of David, should need no argument, for the two are never so identified in Scriptures (cf. Rev. 3:21). And Peter distinguishes between them in Acts 2:30 with 34" (p. 401).

The problem is, all physical kingdom theories are about walking by sight, not about walking by faith. But the really big problem is, Jesus said his kingdom comes without observation, it is within people, and not of this world....and only those who are born again can see it.....

Another big problem is that Jesus and the early church preached the gospel of the Kingdom then present. A gospel of a future kingdom that will never exist will not suffice..

 

[1689Dave]

I am British and we do not have separation of Church and State in the same way it is in the USA. However, I am unaware of any Amillennialist who believes that Christ's physical kingdom is here now

This is because they think the kingdom is physical and the Church no longer controls the State. The kingdom is purely spiritual. Amillennialism is really close if you realize the Kingdom is spiritual.

 

[1689Dave]

forgot the Preterist?... You wouldn't happen to be one would you?.. Just checking... Brother Glen

The preterists are so far removed, they are an entirely different discussion in itself.

 

[John of Japan]

The problem is, all physical kingdom theories are about walking by sight, not about walking by faith.

That's akin to Gnosticism (not saying you are a Gnostic), which taught that everything physical is evil. As for "physical kingdom theories" being about walking by sight, where is that in the Bible? Please stick to the Word of God and not your opinions.

What you appear to be saying is that if Jesus sits on a physical throne, He is no longer doing anything spiritual, and that is absolutely ridiculous.

Furthermore, Heaven is a real, physical place, so Jesus is right now sitting on the real, physical throne of the Kingdom of God. Deny these truths and you have huge theological problems.

But the really big problem is, Jesus said his kingdom comes without observation, it is within people, and not of this world....and only those who are born again can see it.....

That's the Kingdom of God, not the throne of David.

Another big problem is that Jesus and the early church preached the gospel of the Kingdom then present. A gospel of a future kingdom that will never exist will not suffice..

You are mixing up the Gospel. What is your definition of the Gospel? There is no reason a future kingdom would be included in the Gospel of Jesus or Paul. The future kingdom is not about personal salvation.

 

[1689Dave]

That's akin to Gnosticism (not saying you are a Gnostic), which taught that everything physical is evil. As for "physical kingdom theories" being about walking by sight, where is that in the Bible? Please stick to the Word of God and not your opinions.

What you appear to be saying is that if Jesus sits on a physical throne, He is no longer doing anything spiritual, and that is absolutely ridiculous.

That's the Kingdom of God, not the throne of David.
You are mixing up the Gospel. What is your definition of the Gospel? There is no reason a future kingdom would be included in the Gospel of Jesus or Paul. The future kingdom is not about personal salvation.

Thanks for your replies. Jesus presently reigns over earth from David's Throne in Heavenly Jerusalem above. Peter said:

“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:30–31) (KJV 1900)

And Paul says he must rule until the resurrection on the last day.

“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:24–26) (KJV 1900)

Jesus then moves the kingdom into the New Heavens and Earth.

““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

 

[HankD]

Jesus Physical Ascension

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Jesus ascended physically into heaven and the promise is that He Himself will return in the same way.
a visible bodily return with the addition that every eye will see Him (Revelation 1:7).

Zechariah prophesied His return to the same place from whence He left.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

 

[Revmitchell]

I believe every popular eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, (who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years).

I am sorry but your post reveals your ignorance about these issues. When you actually know what these people believe get back to us.

 

[HankD]

I believe every popular eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, (who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years).


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.


The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.


The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. Creating a physical "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.


Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.


But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.


Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

An overall VERY general view:
His kingdom is both physical and spiritual.

Ultimately the material world which groans being subject to death (entropy) will be released from bondage and pass away in a great conflagration and we will enter into the eternal state.

Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[1689Dave]

His kingdom is both physical and spiritual.

I believe the Kingdom is purely spiritual since flesh and blood cannot inherit it.

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50) (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

I am sorry but your post reveals your ignorance about these issues. When you actually know what these people believe get back to us.

You can say I'm wrong, but until you prove your point with scripture, it's merely opinion.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus Physical Ascension

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Jesus ascended physically into heaven and the promise is that He Himself will return in the same way.
a visible bodily return with the addition that every eye will see Him (Revelation 1:7).

Zechariah prophesied His return to the same place from whence He left.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, do you suppose Jesus changed into his heavenly body in his own Rapture, just as believers will in their Rapture?

 

[Revmitchell]

You can say I'm wrong, but until you prove your point with scripture, it's merely opinion.

Woooh wait. You create an op, devoid of any scripture accusing people, with whom you disagree with of holding to positions they do not hold to which is in fact a strawman and then when you are called on your intentional misrepresentation you demand scripture?

When you post something that is correct and true and is worth a real rebuttle I'll be glad to. So long as you post this drivel, I'll just call you on it crabtownboy.