Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Iconoclast]

Yes, but he's right.

I have not followed all of 1689 Daves posts.....he does leave himself open to questioning, but give him a chance to respond....it is like a frenzy right now...
For RM to claim He is ignorant without offering why is kind of ironic when he never answers anyone in any detail.
Dave like many others might have settled on one view a bit prematurely.

Dave...do you believe you can articulate the other positions accurately before being critical?

 

[Iconoclast]

I just looked at post this again. My reaction is, "Huh?" What are you trying to say?

I said, "So to say that the millennial throne of Jesus (the "throne of David") is physical but not spiritual is simply wrong. It is both."

But you said the above, "That is why...." That makes no sense whatsoever.

Dave.....I am trying to grasp what you are offering...but JOJ makes a valid point here. No matter which prophetic calendar we hold......The Kingdom is present on earth in some fashion;
From a postmill view-
psa22:
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
heb12;
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[tyndale1946]

I could be wrong but I think so. Posts exactly like him.

If that be true the only thing I can say is this... O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive! - Walter Scott... Brother Glen

 

[TCassidy]

For RM to claim He is ignorant without offering why is kind of ironic when he never answers anyone in any detail.

Oh but he did, in this case. See post #20.

 

[Aaron]

I believe every popular eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, (who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years).


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.


The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.


The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. Creating a physical "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.


Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.


But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.


Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

More Socialist propaganda here, folks. He trying to say that God has no commandments to rulers and governments of this world. (No moral ones anyway.) They get to do whatever they want in regard to marriage, abortion, Obamacare and all types of oppression. And why?

Christ commanded it!

LOL.

 

[1689Dave]

More Socialist propaganda here, folks. He trying to say that God has no commandments to rulers and governments of this world. (No moral ones anyway.) They get to do whatever they want in regard to marriage, abortion, Obamacare and all types of oppression. And why?

Christ commanded it!

God ordained the civil magistrate and all of the world's kingdom exist by his appointment. “And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;” (Acts 17:26) (KJV 1900)

But Jesus said: “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

ALL Millennial theories try to make Christ's kingdom physical, of this world.

 

[1689Dave]

Again, a statement of yours with no proof. Simply saying something does not make it so. Tell me why something being spiritual can never be physical.

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

John 8:23 KJV
[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Ironically, the word “world” here is also Kosmos and it’s also in the genitive case. same as John 18:36

I ask the OP, if you were interpret this text the same as you are the one where Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, then you would have to conclude Jesus never physically existed in this world, because Jesus is “not of this world” just as his kingdom is “not of this world” (according to you). So do you actually contend that Jesus did not physically exist and have a physical body? Because then you are in the realm of gnostic heresy.

You need to repent of your false doctrine that Christ’s kingdom is never physical. Jesus physically existed on earth and so will his kingdom.

 

[1689Dave]

We are IN the world but not OF the world.

So the kingdom of God is not of the world - not motivated by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

Yes, this is true. But the physical kingdom all look for will never appear. It is spiritual and here now for those who seek it. As I said in my new member introduction, I made a career out of doing this, and I know first hand how real it is. You cannot see it physically, but you can see the results everywhere you look.

 

[1689Dave]

Prove it crabby

I assume you are referring to David's throne being God's Throne where Jesus no resides? This is from my original post:

But Jesus is where now? Doing what? On whose Throne? Remember David's Throne is God's Throne.

“Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.” 1 Kings 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.” 1 Chronicles 29:23 (KJV 1900)

With: “So then, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne,David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay.” (Acts 2:30–31) (NET)

 

[HankD]

Yes, this is true. But the physical kingdom all look for will never appear. It is spiritual and here now for those who seek it. As I said in my new member introduction, I made a career out of doing this, and I know first hand how real it is. You cannot see it physically, but you can see the results everywhere you look.

Dave, how then do you interpret Acts 1:1-11?

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He left in a visible bodily manner.
he shall return "in like manner"

He will establish His kingdom on earth until the material heaven and earth are renovated in a fiery conflagration (2 Peter 3:10-13).

The scriptural promise (God cannot lie) found in many places both in the Old and New Covenant writings promises an earthly kingdom (granted it is spiritual primarily).

Luke 22
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Zechariah 14
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

please give an answer to these passages lest you remain totally UNCONVINCING in your theory proposal

 

[John of Japan]

Even still, cannot the genitive of that passage actually carry the idea of his Kingdom not being of this world meaning it’s source? Seems the OP wants to force a very narrow interpretation of the genitive clause onto the text.

In fact I think the original poster is refuted by this verse

John 8:23 KJV
[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Ironically, the word “world” here is also Kosmos and it’s also in the genitive case.

I ask the OP, if you were interpret this text the same as you are the one where Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, then you would have to conclude Jesus never physically existed in this world, because Jesus is “not of this world” just as his kingdom is “not of this world” (according to you). So do you actually contend that Jesus did not physically exist and have a physical body? Because then are in the realm of gnostic heresy.

You need to repent of your false doctrine that Christ’s kingdom is never physical. Jesus physically existed on earth and so will his kingdom.

Good points, Jordan, and I agree with you.

 

[HankD]

ALL Millennial theories try to make Christ's kingdom physical, of this world.

Wrong, when the LORD ordains His kingdom here on earth, "this world" will have been demolished and its king banished to the bottomless pit.

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[John of Japan]

So 'world' actually doesn't mean 'world' after all.
You're going to upset a lot of people with that, John!

I'm just worried about my students, that they don't get the idea that you can tack just any meaning onto a word, such as "earth, or physical world" onto kosmos. That would be a disaster, a failure right along with Humpty Dumpty, or Eugene Nida, who seemed to think in his existentialism that context always decided the meaning of a word, and that no word has a core meaning. (I can give a quote on this.)

If you are serious with this post, and not totally joking, your mistake is equating the English world "world" with the Greek word kosmos in this context. They are two different languages, and one word in one language rarely means exactly the same in another.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

John 8:23 KJV
[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Ironically, the word “world” here is also Kosmos and it’s also in the genitive case. same as John 18:36

I ask the OP, if you were interpret this text the same as you are the one where Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, then you would have to conclude Jesus never physically existed in this world, because Jesus is “not of this world” just as his kingdom is “not of this world” (according to you). So do you actually contend that Jesus did not physically exist and have a physical body? Because then you are in the realm of gnostic heresy.

You need to repent of your false doctrine that Christ’s kingdom is never physical. Jesus physically existed on earth and so will his kingdom.

STILL WAITING FOR A RESPONSE

 

[HankD]

STILL WAITING FOR A RESPONSE

Indeed, others as well.

 

[John of Japan]

Indeed, others as well.

Me, too. He putters on his way without answering serious objections to his views or acknowledging his misrepresentations of our views.

 

[John of Japan]

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

Let me try again. I asked you to prove to me that something spiritual cannot also be physical. You simply quoted a verse and bolded "My kingdom is not of this world." Neither of the words "physical" (or "fleshly") or "spiritual" are in that verse. So tell me how that verse proves your point.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

That reminds me of what I believe is going on in these verses.

We are like Jesus now in that we are of heaven and our thoughts centered on the lofty things of above. We are foreigners, strangers, and exiles here on earth when part of the Kingdom. It's not just that we don't fit in, it's that our choices are not based on the things of this world. For one, we reject sin, which is like the beloved God of this world below Satan. There are even fools for Christ, who suffer in this world for their faith in Jesus expecting a better resurrection to come. Our lives revolve around heaven, not the earth or its inhabitants, and the things of it and them (1 Corinthians 4:10-13, Philippians 3:18-21, Hebrews 11:12-14, 2 Peter 2:11).

Of course, Philippians 3:20 ends this entire debate, as Jesus returns in the flesh...to do what according to 1689Dave I do not know.

1689Dave, I can understand if this is trolling by asking you one thing: Does Jesus physically return? If you do not answer this in the affirmative, you are Gnostic, and thus well outside the bounds of Christian.

I am still waiting for a response.

 

[Darrell C]

First, Dave, I would point out you have again completely ignored the points and Scripture given which show that a physical Kingdom is coming. You are going to need to learn to address the points of your antagonist if you want anyone to take you seriously, because if you don't, all you can expect is the derision such as you have received in this thread. Be ready to give an answer to any man, my friend.

The Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are the same thing.

I agree, however, what you are failing to understand is the variable "Kingdoms" referred to in Scripture.

As Mentioned in the other thread, we see Christ distinguish between the "Kingdom" which was present during His ministry, which is the spiritual rule of God in the hearts of believers and has always been present, and the Kingdom, which if you remember, He and the Disciples preached "...is at hand." Meaning it is coming.

Here is the distinction made:


Luke 7:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Now, I ask you one question here: would anyone doubt that John the Baptist was part of the Kingdom that is the spiritual rule and reign of God?

Christ again distinguishes between the Kingdom of God we know existed in the hearts of men and the distinct Kingdom to come:


Luke 16:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Here is the Kingdom Christ referred to when He spoke in an eternal context:


Colossians 1:12-14
King James Version (KJV)

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


So at this point we have two Kingdoms in view, let's look at the third (which is actually the first Kingdom made known to Israel):



Luke 19:12-13
King James Version (KJV)

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.


The Nobleman is Christ, Who has at this time gone into a "far country" to receive for Himself a Kingdom...and to return. Something to notice in the parable is that money is involved, and that there is implication of a continuing money system:


Luke 19:23-25
King James Version (KJV)

23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)


This speaks of Christ returning and establishing the Kingdom which is physical, which will have a monetary system:


Luke 19:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


It is unlikely we can apply a monetary system, or, the ruling over of cities...to the Eternal State. But, we can apply it to the Millennial Kingdom.

Nor is it likely this...


Luke 22:28-30
King James Version (KJV)

28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


...applies to the Eternal State:


We see that Kingdom in Revelation:


Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Look again at the passages above, see the concept of Christ returning and giving authority to men to rule? See the thousand years where the Tribulation Martyrs rule with Christ?

Those of us who are futurist always wonder, first, how men can nullify such clear teachings, and secondly, how they they can believe this present existence is the Kingdom ruled by Christ (which is the first Kingdom we looked at and began at Pentecost), and third, how His return which is spoken of and accompanied by a physical existence in both Old and New Testament Prophecy...is denied.

But you give insight to that: it is through ignoring the Scriptures presented to you. So address the points and Scripture, and you will correct the error you have embraced.


Continued...