Eschatology Agnostics

[asterisktom]

We shall judge the fallen Angels, so will be higher than them, and again, we shall have the same type of Body Jesus was raised up with!

You are referring to a different passage. Definitely not a cross-reference. Here Jesus says those who attain the resurrection will be "equal to the angels" (isangeloi). One does not judge someone on the same level. At any rate judging is not even discussed here, but essence is.

 

[Lodic]

The Church has always seen it as heresy, as the physical resurrection of the believer sin Christ has always been an essential doctrine of Christianity, and Paul described us as having the glorified physical bodily resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15, and john in 1 John 3:2!

You still haven't made the case for the Church always seeing Preterist views as heresy. Regardless, the Scriptures leave room for interpretation either way.

 

[Yeshua1]

You went off the rails right here, sorry to say. We need to first see the Scripture from their perspective, the 1st century Christians. These passages were written to them, not us.

They are written for us, but not to us. Many futurists interpret these passages as if the early readers did not even exist. But it is their comfort, admonition, instruction. It is only ours after we first apply this filter.

God intends the scriptures to be read by every generation until the time of the Second coming, as that event will always be just ready to happen!

 

[Yeshua1]

No, he wrote it before the Parousia. Revelation describes the Temple as still standing, and the events to happen shortly.

1-3 John were all written after AD 70...

 

[Yeshua1]

You haven't made the case for the Church always seeing Preterist views as heresy either. Regardless, the Scriptures leave room for interpretation either way.

No they don't, as the Second Coming has ALWAYS been seen as being a still future event in the Church of Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are referring to a different passage. Definitely not a cross-reference. Here Jesus says those who attain the resurrection will be "equal to the angels" (isangeloi). One does not judge someone on the same level. At any rate judging is not even discussed here, but essence is.

We shall be in the same form/body Jesus now is in, that physically risen one!

 

[Lodic]

1-3 John were all written after AD 70...

There is strong evidence that the entire NT was finished between 66-68.

 

[asterisktom]

There is strong evidence that the entire NT was finished between 66-68.

Another point to notice is that none of the writers refer to the fall of Jerusalem as a past event. Given the immense spiritual importance of the event - the ending of the entire Jewish system of worship - it would be bizarre and unfitting for inspired writers to pass over this in silence.

But the event was not reported because it had not happened yet.

 

[Lodic]

Another point to notice is that none of the writers refer to the fall of Jerusalem as a past event. Given the immense spiritual importance of the event - the ending of the entire Jewish system of worship - it would be bizarre and unfitting for inspired writers to pass over this in silence.

But the event was not reported because it had not happened yet.

As President Trump would say, "that is YUUUGE!" I'm still shaking my head over the "no big deal" comment earlier. So many clues - near time statements, use of "you" and "we", the history of what was happening - it all adds up. Unless you refuse to see it, of course.

 

[Lodic]

No they don't, as the Second Coming has ALWAYS been seen as being a still future event in the Church of Christ!

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 shows that his immediate audience expected it in their day. He speaks to them, not about some future generation. In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul speaks of the "Man of Lawlessness" as though it is someone they knew. Try to read the Scriptures through the eyes of their original audiences. Drop the views that you think you know. You just might be surprised.

 

[asterisktom]

As President Trump would say, "that is YUUUGE!" I'm still shaking my head over the "no big deal" comment earlier. So many clues - near time statements, use of "you" and "we", the history of what was happening - it all adds up. Unless you refuse to see it, of course.

But I always try to remind myself that I was in the same mindset - for almost 3 decades. I wished that someone had told me of these other possible interpretations way back then.

 

[Lodic]

But I always try to remind myself that I was in the same mindset - for almost 3 decades. I wished that someone had told me of these other possible interpretations way back then.

Amen, Brother. It totally blew me away to learn of the Preterist view. The more I studied, the more I realized that I had to forget everything I thought I knew about the "End Times" to learn what Scripture actually teaches us.

 

[Calminian]

Many students of the Bible seem to have given up on the very possibility of ever understanding the topic of eschatology - or what is assumed to be eschatology.

This is unfortunate, because it assures that they will have no breakthrough in these truths. And it also makes certain that they will not recognize any new, possibly valid truth that may come from others.

"I can't figure it out, so anything you supposedly found must also be doubtful."

This impasse has even been given a name: Pan-Tribbism. "What ever pans out is OK".

Is this what God wants? One fourth of the Bible has to do with prophecy. That is a large percentage to write off as unknowable.

How do we get past this impasse? Are you sitting down? This may shock you. Read your Bible and pray. It is that simple. The impasse comes only when people have their commentaries closer to them than their Bibles. And the confusion comes when we accept the conclusions of others as our own.

Remember this:
God is not the author of confusion.
God Is the author of the Bible.
The confused are not reading their Bibles!

It's a very frustrating trend in the church today. Very little of the bible is preached to avoid arguments and controversy. Genesis 1-11 and the tribulation portions of Revelation are rarely preached in my experience. It's a shame because they're missing a blessing.

Should Churches Avoid Genesis and Revelation?

 

[Calminian]

There is strong evidence that the entire NT was finished between 66-68.

Not really. Preterists try to make this case, but I've not heard a good argument yet, from historical quotes. Even if they did, the magnitude of the tribulation precludes fulfillment in one tiny location for a brief time. Anyone reading Revelation can see John is describing a worldwide tribulation.

 

[church mouse guy]

If the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 truly was "no big deal", why did Jesus bother to predict it? You seem to have trouble grasping what Paul's comments about how there is no Jew nor Greek, male nor female, etc. in Christ. Of course these distinctions exist. Paul is saying that it doesn't matter whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, man or woman, slave or free - to be in Christ. A slave who is in Christ is actually more free than a free man without Christ, because the "free man" is still enslaved to sin.
According to Paul, the true Jew / true Israelite is the one who is in Christ. Consider just these passages from Romans - 2:26-29; 9:6-9; 10:12-13; 11:25-27. I could go on with others, but thought sticking with just one book would be easier.

If I may ask, do you believe there is one "people of God" or two?

See your buddy accuses me of bringing up that verse when you did. You yourself want to have your cake and eat it too. You are trying to say that the verse says that there are no more Jews but that you are a free man but by your own logic if there are no more Jews there are no more men and no more slaves, which is a combination of West Hollywood and Islam.

Why did Jesus mention Jerusalem? Because it fulfills the prophecy of Moses but it has nothing to do with any of the degenerate two-bit Roman emperors who gave no one the mark of the beast and probably never heard of it. Rome was just another nazi state. You lose.

 

[percho]

Another point to notice is that none of the writers refer to the fall of Jerusalem as a past event. Given the immense spiritual importance of the event - the ending of the entire Jewish system of worship - it would be bizarre and unfitting for inspired writers to pass over this in silence.

But the event was not reported because it had not happened yet.

When Christ was born to Mary, who were in Jerusalem, the good figs or the bad, very bad figs and why were they there?

Where were the, other, figs?

 

[asterisktom]

When Christ was born to Mary, who were in Jerusalem, the good figs or the bad, very bad figs and why were they there?

Where were the, other, figs?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll give it a shot. There were both good and bad figs when Christ was born. It had not yet gotten to the point where it did in the 60's.

Maybe if you clarify I can also answer more clearly.

 

[percho]

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll give it a shot. There were both good and bad figs when Christ was born. It had not yet gotten to the point where it did in the 60's.

Maybe if you clarify I can also answer more clearly.

Jeremiah 24

 

[asterisktom]

Not really. Preterists try to make this case, but I've not heard a good argument yet, from historical quotes.

Whether or not historical sources can be found, my question is why are you wanting to bypass the Bible itself as a witness to this topic? None of those parts of the Bible that you assume were written well after AD70 make any after-the-fact comment about the fall of Jerusalem. Many of them speak of the Temple as still standing and the judgment to happen very soon.

Even if they did, the magnitude of the tribulation precludes fulfillment in one tiny location for a brief time.

The assumed magnitude, that is. You are just echoing what you have been trained to see. Just as many of us were. The language of the Greek and the details point rather to (what you call) the "tiny location" of Israel and the "brief time". Actually, some of the details concern the entire Roman Empire, wherever the Diaspora has spread to.

Anyone reading Revelation can see John is describing a worldwide tribulation.

Countrywide and rippling throughout the entire Diaspora, yes. Not worldwide.

 

[asterisktom]

Jeremiah 24

Yes, the Jews of the 60's were those bad figs that could no longer be eaten. And, like the Jews of Jeremiah's time, they were doomed to be delivered to the sword and scattered off of the land.

There is a partial parallel between the first and second judgments of Jerusalem. In the first the ones going off into captivity were the believing, obedient remnant. In the second the ones going off into captivity were going to their doom. The only Christians who escaped were the Christians who had fled to Pella when they had the window of opportunity.

When they left the basket had only bad - very bad - figs. And they are the figs that "fell like stars from the sky", Rev. 6:13.

Daniel was foretold of this time:

"When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." Daniel 12:7