Eschatology Agnostics

[Lodic]

Not really. Preterists try to make this case, but I've not heard a good argument yet, from historical quotes. Even if they did, the magnitude of the tribulation precludes fulfillment in one tiny location for a brief time. Anyone reading Revelation can see John is describing a worldwide tribulation.

It's easy to produce a long list of Biblical scholars who support the early (pre-AD 70) dating of Revelation. We look at internal and external evidence for the dating of Revelation. The strongest external dating is a quote from Iraneaus, but that quote is not very clear. Iraneaus also said that Jesus's ministry lasted 15 years and that He was 50 when He was crucified.
Internal evidence - Just off the top of my head, here are some facts that support this view: the Temple is still standing in John's vision; the 6th King is obviously Nero; the 42 months fits the Jewish War (AD 66-70).
Futurists make the claim that Revelation is about a worldwide tribulation. A careful study of the book, along with the Olivet Discourse and other passages, shows that the majority of the prophecies are very specific to Jerusalem. On the other hand, the case that this refers to a worldwide event 2,000 years in the future is weak.

 

[Lodic]

See your buddy accuses me of bringing up that verse when you did. You yourself want to have your cake and eat it too. You are trying to say that the verse says that there are no more Jews but that you are a free man but by your own logic if there are no more Jews there are no more men and no more slaves, which is a combination of West Hollywood and Islam.

Why did Jesus mention Jerusalem? Because it fulfills the prophecy of Moses but it has nothing to do with any of the degenerate two-bit Roman emperors who gave no one the mark of the beast and probably never heard of it. Rome was just another nazi state. You lose.

I don't remember (nor care) who brought up what passage, because it's all relevant. Neither Tom nor I ever claimed that there are no more Jews. That is absolutely absurd. You completely misunderstand Paul's meaning about the "true Jew". Note that Paul himself uses that term in Philippians 3:3. Earlier I pointed our several passages from the book of Romans where Paul explains what he means by "true Jew" or "true Israel".

Have you ever thought about the fact that even the Jews refer back to Father Abraham? I bring that up because Abraham was not a Jew. By definition, the first Jew was Israel. This supports the view that there is no advantage for the Jew. A Jew is saved the exact same way that a Gentile is saved - by faith in Christ. To repeat a question that I asked earlier, are there one "people of God", or two? What do you base your answer on?

If I may ask, what specific prophecy of Moses do you refer to above?

 

[Lodic]

An important note that I forgot to bring up - especially for @Yeshua1 , @Calminian , and @church mouse guy - The main point about the Olivet Discourse, Revelation, and other "end of the world" prophecies is not that it's about the literal end of the world, but about the end of the Old Covenant System. The destruction of the Temple ended it. This was as huge to the Jews as Pearl Harbor or 9/11 were to America. I'm sure that @asterisktom could have more to add, but I felt this point would help to explain the Preterist view.

 

[Covenanter]

When Christ was born to Mary, who were in Jerusalem, the good figs or the bad, very bad figs and why were they there?

Where were the, other, figs?

Jeremiah 24

There is a tendency for dispies to quote the prophecies concerning Israel as if they were yet to be fulfilled in a great restoration of the nation in the "end times."

All the prophets except Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi prophesied before or during the exile, and were concerned with judgment of the nation, & its restoration in anticipation of the Messiah coming to fulfill God's covenant promises. We therefore need to read those prophecies in the context, as written to the first hearers.

Such prophecies have an immediate application to their hearers, & an application to the returnees. In those prophecies we can see the incarnation, life & saving ministry of the LORD Jesus Christ, to the New Covenant church established at Pentecost, to the final end of the Old Covenant administration, & ultimately to the NH&NE.

Peter made a final prophecy concerning the nation of Israel in Acts 3:11-26. The simple message is "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out." Believer in Jesus Christ are owned by God as true "heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers." Those who rejected their Messiah; "Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’

That cut off took place in AD 70 when the last vestiges of the Old Covenant were obliterated. Since then the New Covenant has prevailed, uniting in Christ all children of Abraham by faith. There have been no OC Jews as a continuing OC people. Countless Jews continue in the Covenant by faith in Jesus, but their Jewish identity is lost as they are rejected by the Jewish community.

The vicious persecution of Jews by false Christians & others is totally evil. We have a Gospel that counts them along with sinners of all nations who are welcome to come. 3 or 4 generations ended in AD 70.

 

[robycop3]

Why not "full" preterism? Is it so important to believe in a physical return of Christ? I thought the main thing is that we place our faith in Christ Jesus. It's not like they are from a cult. Just a different eschatological view.

The reason preterism's wrong is because Jesus plainly stated many features of His return. He said it'd be seen by all, (Rev. 1:7), that He'd be with great power & glory, that He'd return during a great cosmological disturbance that immediately follows the great trib, & that He'd take over the rule of the world from David's throne for 1K years, after casting the "beast" & his sidekick the false prophet alive into the lake of fire. OBVIOUSLY, THIS HASN'T HAPPENED YET ! !

 

[robycop3]

Yes, but that is exactly how I arrived at preterism. I did what I wrote about in the OP. For a long time I took a break from my many commentaries and tried to study out the words and the connections with the help of concordances (and even concordances at times reveal their biases by how they group shades of - assumed - meanings).

So who is it that is not permitting this view? You? The majority of modern Christendom? No doubt. But they have been taught by outside influences not to connect the dots that are right there in their Bibles.

If you try to "connect the dots" of eschatological prophecy with ACTUAL EVENTS, you'll soon see there's a lot to yet be fulfilled. Any good encyclopedia will prove this.

THERE'S SIMPLY NO AVOIDING THAT FACT ! !

 

[robycop3]

Actually, ancient Christians believed as modern Christians do. The real problem with Preterism is that it is illogical and the dots cannot be connected because they don't make sense. Like the notion that there are no more Jews because there is neither Jew nor Greek--do you say there is only one sex because there is no more male nor female--that sounds like same-sex then by the same logic.

And any good encyclopedia will show there are quite a few prophesied events that are yet to happen.

 

[robycop3]

Several things wrong here but it will have to wait till tomorrow. I can see that you clearly do not understand preterism.

the ONLY thing to understand about preterism is that it's NOT TRUE. That's easily proven by comparing eschatological prophecy with history.

 

[robycop3]

Revelation 1:7 refers specifically to those who had Him killed.

It says, "EVEN those who pierced Him", showing that under ordinary circumstances, they couldn't see Him because they're dead. But apparently, the souls in hades will also see Jesus' return.

IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS HE DIDN'T RETURN WHILE THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM WERE STILL ALIVE ON EARTH!

 

[asterisktom]

If you try to "connect the dots" of eschatological prophecy with ACTUAL EVENTS, you'll soon see there's a lot to yet be fulfilled. Any good encyclopedia will prove this.

THERE'S SIMPLY NO AVOIDING THAT FACT ! !

So "events" are more important to you than what the Bible says? I put "events" in quotes because for the reporting of these events we have to resort to fallible human historians.

There is no "good encyclopedia". But there is the Good Book. God's Word is infallible. As Paul said, "Let God be true and every man a liar".

 

[asterisktom]

It says, "EVEN those who pierced Him", showing that under ordinary circumstances, they couldn't see Him because they're dead. But apparently, the souls in hades will also see Jesus' return.

IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS HE DIDN'T RETURN WHILE THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM WERE STILL ALIVE ON EARTH!

Just as Jesus said, some of them were alive to see His return. Remember what He said to Caiaphas.

 

[Lodic]

The reason preterism's wrong is because Jesus plainly stated many features of His return. He said it'd be seen by all, (Rev. 1:7), that He'd be with great power & glory, that He'd return during a great cosmological disturbance that immediately follows the great trib, & that He'd take over the rule of the world from David's throne for 1K years, after casting the "beast" & his sidekick the false prophet alive into the lake of fire. OBVIOUSLY, THIS HASN'T HAPPENED YET ! !

The reason Preterism IS the correct view is because the signs that Jesus prophesied came to pass just as He said, beginning with the Jewish Wars, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70. He was not speaking of the end of the world, but of the end of the Old Covenant system. The "great tribulation" was not a worldwide event, but specific to Jerusalem. The prophets often used the same type of "cosmological" language to describe major events (e.g. Isaiah 19:1). Jesus did the same in the Olivet Discourse, and John did the same thing in Revelation. History shows that these events happened exactly as prophesied.

The phrase "every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7) could also be taken to mean that everyone will understand.

Where does the Scripture say that Jesus will rule the world from David's throne for 1K years?

 

[Lodic]

It says, "EVEN those who pierced Him", showing that under ordinary circumstances, they couldn't see Him because they're dead. But apparently, the souls in hades will also see Jesus' return.

IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS HE DIDN'T RETURN WHILE THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM WERE STILL ALIVE ON EARTH!

While that is one possible explanation, and it fits your eschatological view, that is not the only way to interpret this passage. From the Partial Preterist view, I believe that "those who pierced Him" recognized it as His judgment. In any case, it doesn't have to be a literally "see". We often say "I see" to mean that we understand.

 

[robycop3]

An important note that I forgot to bring up - especially for @Yeshua1 , @Calminian , and @church mouse guy - The main point about the Olivet Discourse, Revelation, and other "end of the world" prophecies is not that it's about the literal end of the world, but about the end of the Old Covenant System. The destruction of the Temple ended it. This was as huge to the Jews as Pearl Harbor or 9/11 were to America. I'm sure that @asterisktom could have more to add, but I felt this point would help to explain the Preterist view.

With all due respect, Sir, Scripture does NOT say "Jews only". The Old Covenant was ended by Jesus at the 'Last Supper' & sealed by His death.

The events of 70 AD were part of the "days of vengeance" Jesus prophesied against that generation of Jews. A coupla generations later, they were later punished MUCH WORSE for murdering Jesus, beginning 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land. They were despised & persecuted wherever they went for some 1800 years, culminating in the nazi holocaust. But after the nazis fell, God began to lift their punishment, and, 3 years later, they had a sovereign nation again, for the 1st time since the Babylonian conquest.

Now, the Orthodox Jews still live under the Old Covenant, and they fully intend to renew the system of sacrifices in their new temple when it's built. (There aren't too many Christian Jews.) This temple is necessary for the 'beast' to commit the "abomination of desolation" in. And Gabriel told Daniel what the AOD will be - the evil ruler setting up his statue in the temple & that man declaring himself to be God. Now, that event simply HASN'T YET HAPPENED! But Jesus said "when you see it, LOOK OUT! The great trib will be coming quickly!"

And again, it's VERY-OBVIOUS those events have NOT yet happened!

 

[Yeshua1]

There is strong evidence that the entire NT was finished between 66-68.

Much stronger evidence though that John's Epistles and Revelation were done near end of the first century!

 

[Lodic]

If you try to "connect the dots" of eschatological prophecy with ACTUAL EVENTS, you'll soon see there's a lot to yet be fulfilled. Any good encyclopedia will prove this.

THERE'S SIMPLY NO AVOIDING THAT FACT ! !

Since you wish to use historical events to support your point, you have to concede that historical events are EXACTLY what prove the Preterist view. Specifically, the well-documented Jewish War and Destruction of Jerusalem. You are looking for a worldwide catastrophe that will never happen because you misunderstand what the Scriptures say.

 

[Yeshua1]

Whether or not historical sources can be found, my question is why are you wanting to bypass the Bible itself as a witness to this topic? None of those parts of the Bible that you assume were written well after AD70 make any after-the-fact comment about the fall of Jerusalem. Many of them speak of the Temple as still standing and the judgment to happen very soon.



The assumed magnitude, that is. You are just echoing what you have been trained to see. Just as many of us were. The language of the Greek and the details point rather to (what you call) the "tiny location" of Israel and the "brief time". Actually, some of the details concern the entire Roman Empire, wherever the Diaspora has spread to.


Countrywide and rippling throughout the entire Diaspora, yes. Not worldwide.

No Antichrist was back in AD 70, no physical resurrection of the saints either!

 

[Yeshua1]

Since you wish to use historical events to support your point, you have to concede that historical events are EXACTLY what prove the Preterist view. Specifically, the well-documented Jewish War and Destruction of Jerusalem. You are looking for a worldwide catastrophe that will never happen because you misunderstand what the Scriptures say.

Jesus stated that all life would have ended if he did not return to end the Tribulation, and that was Ad 70 event!

 

[Yeshua1]

It's easy to produce a long list of Biblical scholars who support the early (pre-AD 70) dating of Revelation. We look at internal and external evidence for the dating of Revelation. The strongest external dating is a quote from Iraneaus, but that quote is not very clear. Iraneaus also said that Jesus's ministry lasted 15 years and that He was 50 when He was crucified.
Internal evidence - Just off the top of my head, here are some facts that support this view: the Temple is still standing in John's vision; the 6th King is obviously Nero; the 42 months fits the Jewish War (AD 66-70).
Futurists make the claim that Revelation is about a worldwide tribulation. A careful study of the book, along with the Olivet Discourse and other passages, shows that the majority of the prophecies are very specific to Jerusalem. On the other hand, the case that this refers to a worldwide event 2,000 years in the future is weak.

When Jesus returns, there MUST be the physical resurrection of the saints, the setting up of His Kingdom, now in the Messianic Age. none of which happened in AD 70!

 

[church mouse guy]

The reason Preterism IS the correct view is because the signs that Jesus prophesied came to pass just as He said, beginning with the Jewish Wars, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70. He was not speaking of the end of the world, but of the end of the Old Covenant system. The "great tribulation" was not a worldwide event, but specific to Jerusalem. The prophets often used the same type of "cosmological" language to describe major events (e.g. Isaiah 19:1). Jesus did the same in the Olivet Discourse, and John did the same thing in Revelation. History shows that these events happened exactly as prophesied.

The phrase "every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7) could also be taken to mean that everyone will understand.

Where does the Scripture say that Jesus will rule the world from David's throne for 1K years?

Salvation left Judaism on Good Friday, not with the destruction of the Temple. Preterism seeks to allegorize everything. Every eye shall see Him means that every eye shall see Him.