Yes it is.
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Eschatology
- Thread starter easternstar
- Start date
37818
Well-Known Member
The one event
Isaiah 13:10, For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isaiah 24:23, Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Ezekiel 32:7, And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
Joel 2:10, The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joel 2:31, The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 3:15, The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Matthew 24:29, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mark 13:24, But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
Luke 21:25, And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Acts 2:20, The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Revelation 6:12, And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
So, I have no problem believing this will happen. But I'm not sure how that proves post-trib. And at one point you said post-trib and pre-wrath, which are two contradictory positions. Did you mean you hold to both of those?
More than Conquerors was the book that really helped me. When I read Revelation, I couldn't understand it. The world kept coming to an end and then cranking up again (e.g. Rev. 6:12-7:1). M.T.C. showed me how to read the book so that it made sense.
Having said that, I try not to fall out with those who have adopted other systems of interpretation. The only exception I make to that is hyper-preterism.
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes. I am of the persuasion the sixth seal is a post trib event. The repture occurs before the wrath of God occurs. Revelation 6:17.
We believers need to keep in mind that there are four successive horseriders of the Apocalypse, three of them are satanic->each worse than the other. Two of them, I mean the horserider of the black horse, and the horserider of the pale horse named Death, these both will be released ONLY after the horserider of the red horse have ended the current period of time already underway, in which both are already fighting face to face, i.e. the horserider on the white horse -> Michael, the archangel (Revelation 6:2 combined with Psalms 45:5 and Daniel 12:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16and Revelation 12:7-17), and the powerful horserider of the red horse-> the apocaliptic Man called Trump- , as is written in Revelation 6:2-4 and is being fulfilled LITERALLY, as follow:
Revelation 6:3-4:->3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard ...Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth(this is his first performance, to take peace from the earth, and it has been fulfilled LITERALLY since the beginning of his government), and that they should kill one another ->(this second performance of him must fulfill LITERALLY from now on), and there was given unto him a great sword.->(By allegory, it means was given unto him demonic MOUTH to speak atrocities and fomenting them throughout the world).
By the way, remember, Satan tried to prevent the LITERAL fulfillment of this prophecy when he used one of his evil instruments to kill Trump. The shot was precisely aimed at Trump's head; the fatal bullet grazed his ear. If it had hit his head, he would have fallen dead right there, and then what? How would the Scriptures, i.e., Revelation, be fulfilled?
The end of the rider on the red horse will only happen after he fulfills everything that is determined for him to do, under the observation of Michael, who knows the extent to which the rider on the red horse can go, and no further than what is written.
After the red horse finishes his task, Michael will still continue fighting against the riders on the black and pale horses, who will come soon after.
Noachide, Chabad and Donald Trump
Revelation 6:3-4:->3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard ...Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth(this is his first performance, to take peace from the earth, and it has been fulfilled LITERALLY since the beginning of his government), and that they should kill one another ->(this second performance of him must fulfill LITERALLY from now on), and there was given unto him a great sword.->(By allegory, it means was given unto him demonic MOUTH to speak atrocities and fomenting them throughout the world).
By the way, remember, Satan tried to prevent the LITERAL fulfillment of this prophecy when he used one of his evil instruments to kill Trump. The shot was precisely aimed at Trump's head; the fatal bullet grazed his ear. If it had hit his head, he would have fallen dead right there, and then what? How would the Scriptures, i.e., Revelation, be fulfilled?
The end of the rider on the red horse will only happen after he fulfills everything that is determined for him to do, under the observation of Michael, who knows the extent to which the rider on the red horse can go, and no further than what is written.
After the red horse finishes his task, Michael will still continue fighting against the riders on the black and pale horses, who will come soon after.
Noachide, Chabad and Donald Trump
Why was this the proof prophecy, the first words out of the mouth of Peter to Israel in this new dispensation 50 days after our Lord Jesus was raised bodily and physically from the dead and 40 days after he ascended to heaven where he is now (this is that)? This had at least a token fulfilment 50 days earlier when at the midpoint of the 6 hours of Jesus on the cross some similar things happened. Israel as a people and covenant nation had some decisions to make concerning this man. And so do we.
Parallels in prophecy should be considered because the truth is woven through the entire Bible, not just in single events. We have a spiritual Bible that is practical. God has already decided about this man Jesus but the world hasn't. He has given the whole world space to repent and embrace salvation through Jesus Christ. God has not predetermined the world's response but he has predetermined his response to the world and has made it known.
Eccl 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
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37818
Well-Known Member
I do not understand what you are asking.
37818
Well-Known Member
Revelation 6:16-17, And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 11:18, And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 16:19, And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Revelation 19:15, And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 11:18, And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 16:19, And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Revelation 19:15, And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Why do you think you know when Jesus is Coming Back?
I've never heard of any similar position, and I teach Eschatology! Interesting. I'm not sure how the events you are speaking of can be post-trib and post rapture, thus dividing up the rapture and 2nd coming, but then not trib events.
37818
Well-Known Member
My understanding has to be understood Biblically one piece at a time.
I don't believe in two raptures. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
* There is only one first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-6.
* There is only one second appearing. Hebrews 9:28.
Matthew 24:29-31 are post trib.
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The rapture in the pre-trib position is the Lord taking His Bride out of tribulation. There are post-trib folks who don't see a need for a rapture at all, subsuming it as part of the 2nd coming. What is the theological need for a rapture in your position?
37818
Well-Known Member
I am not "those" post trib that deny the pre wrath rapture.
1 Thessalonians 1:10, And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Again, I do hold to a pre wrath rapture. But not pre trib.
Matthew 24:31, . . . And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
We need to identify what we are understanding differently.
37818
Well-Known Member
Is a pre trib argument.
Do you even understand why the tribulation and God's wrath are believed to be distinct?
Correct. It is a theological argument for a pre-trib rapture. I am asking you for a theological point to your position.
Not by me, but by you. But I do believe there are two halves to the tribulation. I'm typical pre-trib.
Again, your position doesn't appear to be a typical post-trib or pre-wrath position, so I'm asking you to clarify. So go ahead and tell me why the tribulation is not God's wrath. Rosenthal believed that the first six seals were Satan's wrath, and finally God's wrath happens at the 7th seal. Is that what you believe?
Would you see the first half of the Great tribulation as basically mans wrath upon man, as in Antichrist warring against saints, while last half wrath of God being poured out ?
Not really Man's wrath. The first half is Satan trying to control the world with his unholy trinity. Meanwhile, God is preparing to unleash His wrath on the world during the first half, but in His compassion will wait to give people a couple of final chances for faith (2 witnesses, everlasting gospel angel).
37818
Well-Known Member
The tribulation is from Satan. Revelation 6:16-17 is God's wrath on the unsaved.
Two things:
1) There were 39 books of the Bible available for Peter to quote. God had just poured out the Spirit from heaven on Israel and called it a baptism because he had immersed the whole nation. It caused the preachers to speak and the nation to hear in their resident national languages. When Peter was asked what this means he said this is a fulfillment of the prophecy he quoted from Jude. I suggested there are parallels in scripture and if this prophecy in Jude had been fulfilled, then one should ask the question, when. These are not idle words and the direction history would take from this point would depend on whether Israel as a nation repented and receive the savior, Jesus Christ. At this point in history we still have not yet seen the great day of the Lord come.
You might remember, in Mark 9 I think without looking, that Jesus answered the apostles question about the promise that Elijah would come before the day of the Lord and Jesus said that he had come and they understood that Jesus was saying that John Baptist would have fulfilled that prophecy had Israel repented. Parallels! Elijah is yet to come.
2) Eschatology, the time of the end, is concerned first with the Abrahamic Covenant and the restoration of Israel to her land as the head nation with her King established as the King in Israel over all the nations of the world. Jesus Christ, who said to Cleopas and his friend in Luke 24 that he came to fulfill all prophecy concerning himself and whose ministry lasted exactly 3 1/2 years, equivalent to the 1260 days of the first half of the last 7 years of Daniel's tribulation prophecy that is equally separated by the coming of the Great day of the Lord judgement. This judgement is the refiners fire that purifies Israel as silver is purified.
So, when Jesus was on the cross at the midpoint, 12 o'clock, the events that would have fulfilled Joel's prophecy concerning the darkness and the moon would have been counted fulfilled if Israel had obeyed Peter's charge for national repentance. The final one half of that 7 year tribulation, the great tribulation, the day of the Lord, would have then been fulfilled. Why else would this prophecy have been quoted at this time?
This is why I said what I did in the previous post. The day of the Lord will be fulfilled exactly as the prophets described it no matter when that time comes sooner or later and it will come after events described by Joel and Peter. So far Israel has not repented and it has not come.
You will see this darkness coming just before the intense wrath of God in Re 8 between the 4th and 5th angel and the 3 woes.
I do admit that I see through a glass darkly and do not have perfect understanding.
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