Eternal Salvation?

[word_digger]

"Historical positions" have nothing to do with the truth.

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
Chris,

I'm quite aware of the "amil" theory. Pastor Larry did a good job on the "prowling" issue. How does an amillennialist reconcile this:

Do we have resurrected OT saints running around us who are two thousand years old? Boy would the National Enquirer like to get a hold of that one!

And didn't the mark on the foreheads thing happen during the tribulation? Has the tribulation happened already also? Pardon me, but trying to think amillennialist has confused me greatly.

[ July 08, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wellsjs:

Where does it say in this verse anything about resurrected saints? In the amil model this refers to the first ressurrection - the new birth. The dead saints in heaven are all those who have died under persecution in church history.

Amil eschatology should not be confusing; it is the simplest form of eschatology. Christ came, Christ reigns, Christ will come again (as is true for historic premil and postmil).

The only "system" which confuses me is dispensationalism, with its myriad of charts concerning multiple ressurections, Advents, and raptures!

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by word_digger:
"Historical positions" have nothing to do with the truth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a great oversimplification, for historic orthodoxy is very important, for how else do we recognize and condemn heresy? And let's not forget that the Bible is a history book - albeit a perfect and inspired one!

 

[word_digger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> That is a great oversimplification, for historic orthodoxy is very important, for how else do we recognize and condemn heresy? And let's not forget that the Bible is a history book - albeit a perfect and inspired one! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If historic orthodoxy, on certain doctrinal matters, is itself a heresy to the truth of the Bible doctrine, then the historic position is no basis for determining what is, or is not, heresy. The Bible itself holds that ultimate authority, not the interpreters thereof.

In other words, if you have amills, premills, and postmills, two out of the three MUST be wrong. That is a logical conclusion. So we are back to who is right and who is wrong....only the Bible and the Spirit can reveal that.

 

[Gina B]

Ok, unless I read through my entire Bible I'm not going to find what I was looking for where it was said "Lest He withdraw His Holy Spirit from you. I know I'm not crazy. Has anyone else read this? (earlier n the discussion I brought i up)
Gina

 

[word_digger]

Gina,
You were, perhaps, looking for this verse?: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FWIW, it is in the context of the OT, not the Church age. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[HankD]

Hi Gina,

are you possibly thinking of :

KJV Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

HankD

 

[word_digger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Barnes notes about this very subject. The following is a direct quotation from said commentary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Talk about talking in circles and not really saying anything of substance. (sigh!)

 

[John Wells]

Hello Chris,

You forgot or avoided the "marks on the forehead?"

If you start with Rev 20:4 and work backward (hopefully you would agree that chapters 19 and 20 are chronological order of events. There is strong implication as such), with an amil mindset, we find "souls" (as you say, but what about "They came to life?" How can you conclude that John saw nothing more than souls? "They came to life" is pretty clear! So unless you can show me something that doesn't appear to me to be there, I'm sticking to my question, "where are all the resurrected OT saints running around today?

Even if you were correct that John only saw "souls," (going on) that they "had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands" implies that others have, that this prophesy of the "mark of the beast" has already taken place (amil view only).

Going back to verses 2/3, Satan has already been thrown into the bottomless pit (abyss). OK you say he is "on a chain" (speculation) Like Pastor Larry said, kind of hard to imagine Satan "prowling about the earth to and fro, seeking whom he might devour," while on a chain! But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, go backward a couple of more verses.

In Rev 19:20 it says, "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur." Again we see that the "mark of the beast" has indeed already occured (to the amil), and "the beast" and "the false prophet" have already come and gone, doing their "miraculous signs." Can you tell me who these two were in history and what signs they did?

God bless Chris (I really like most of your other inputs)

 

[Gina B]

Thanks, both of you. That very well could have been it. Job also comes to mind. Don't know where I pulled I John from, or perhaps I overlooked it there. Anyhoo, I don't see how it would change the meaning, no matter what testament it was in, as the method of salvation was the same, and it's obvious that a saved man was speaking as he had the Holy Spirit in the first place. So I will use that as my backup for believing that it is possible.
Gina

 

[fwbbcflames]

Gina,

Good point about the verse in Psalm 51. I think the context of the Psalm proves that one can become an apostate. In 2 Sam. when the phrophet came to David and told him the parable of the lamb, and David said "As the Lord liveth this man should die." He pronounced judgement on himself without knowing it. Then the next words "Thou art the man." David had two choices to make here, one repent, or reject. We know through the 7 penitential Psalms he repented. (6,32,38,51,102,130,143) It was David's free will that allowed him to make this decision. If he would of rejected, he would of became an apostate. The mention of the Holy Spirit here is also interesting. If I am not mistaken it is only mentioned by name only one other time in the OT. (Is. 63:10)

 

[Pastor Larry]

FWIW, I think the reference to the Spirit in Psalm 51 has to do with the theocratic anointing for leadership that was on Moses, then the 70, then Joshua, then the judges, then Saul and it was taken from Saul and given to DAvid. It was given to Christ at his baptism. I could trace down all the references but I don't have time. I don't think it refers to the indwelling of the Spirit which cannot be lost. I will try to look up a couple of sources on this I can recommend to you who are interested.

 

[fwbbcflames]

Pastor Larry,

The context of Psalm 51 has nothing to do with leadership. David cries out to God for mercy and forgivness. He does pray for Zion at the end of his prayer, but not that he is king or anything like that. He was not worried about his place in leadership, he was worried about his soul.

 

[Man of Sword]

Chris,

I sure hope for your sake, (and anyone else reading this post), that you truly do not have an amillenial view.

Anyone who approaches the Bible with an "amil" view, cannot correctly interpret scripture.

Hope I read the post above wrong.

 

[word_digger]

Man of Sword said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Anyone who approaches the Bible with an "amil" view, cannot correctly interpret scripture. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In defense of Chris and others who may be escatologically challenged, would it not be more accurate to say they cannot interpret some scripture correctly? Just a thought! I'm feeling generous today.

 

[Man of Sword]

Well word digger,

Let's put it this way.

A person who has an "amil" view of scripture, cannot correctly interpret New Testament scripture as pertaining to most doctrines.

They will mix up things like:

The differences between Israel and the Church
The differences between Law and Grace
How salvation is come about
What eternal life is based on
Is eternal life eternally secure
Etc., etc.

Of course this post will be highly disagreed with...but, I'm used to that.

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Man of Sword:
Chris,

I sure hope for your sake, (and anyone else reading this post), that you truly do not have an amillenial view.

Anyone who approaches the Bible with an "amil" view, cannot correctly interpret scripture.

Hope I read the post above wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whew... thanks for the warning, MoS! I'll be sure to pass that along to Calvin, Luther and Augustine when I see 'em!

 

[John Wells]

Chris,

I'm still waiting for your response to Pastor Larry's "How do you reconcile Ezek 40-48 with today?"

Where's the temple?
Who was "the" antichrist?
Who was the beast?
What were their miraculous signs?
How can a "chained up" (your words, Bible says he's bound in the abyss during the millennium) Satan be having such a profound impact in the world today?

Get to the point and stop "caving to" and promoting idle chatter

.

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

[Man of Sword]

Chris,

Just make a point brother. Make a point on the doctrines I listed, and tell me how you reconcile them between Peter, Paul and James...for example.

How do you reconcile what the Lord said in Matt 24...that one must endure to the end to be saved...yet Paul says that a man is saved by grace through faith...Eph 2:8-9?

How is it that Paul says a man is justified by the blood of Christ, that a man is justified by faith in Christ...yet James says that a man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, NOT BY FAITH ONLY?

How is it in Matt 19, when someone asked the Lord what he must do to have eternal life...the Lord told him to "keep the commandments"...yet Paul says all throughout his writings that eternal life comes through faith in Christ? Paul goes as far to say that no man is justified by the works of the law...yet our own Lord said to have eternal life, you must keep the law?

There are many more of these type of points to deal with...but why don't you take those for starters...if you want. Or maybe you can go ask Calvin, Luther or Augustine.

 

[firedome]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What percentage of blossoms on the apple and plum trees mature and bear fruit? And that is an adumbration in the natural of what is found in the spiritual realm. Many a promising bud is nipped by the frosts of spring and never develops into a flower. In like manner there is a large number who so far from despising and rejecting it, “receive the Word with joy, yet hath not root in himself, but dureth from a while” (Matthew 13:20, 21). That was the case when Christ Himself sowed the Seed, and many a faithful servant of His has found the same thing duplicated in his own ministerial labors. How often has he seen the buds of promise appearing in the lives of some of his young people, only to be saddened later by the discovery that their.26 “goodness was as a morning cloud and as the early dew it went away” (Hosea 6:4). “Ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light” (John 5:35) said Christ of certain ones who sat under the preaching of His forerunner; but observe He declared not that they had “sorrowed unto repentance”. Blazing comets and meteors are soon spent and fall from heaven like lightning, but the stars keep their orbits and stations—as do the spiritual “stars” held fast in Christ’s right hand (Revelation 2:1). There is an initial grace which produces a real but transient effect, and there is a saving grace which secures a permanent result. Hebrews 6:4, 5 supplies a solemn illustration of the former. There we read of those “who were once enlightened”, that is, whose minds were illumined from on high, so that they perceived clearly the excellency of Divine things. They “tasted of the heavenly gift,” so that for a season they lost their relish for the things of the world. They “were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” being convicted by Him of their sins and brought to say with Balaam “let me die the death of the righteous” (Numbers 23:10); but thorns sprang up and choked the good Seed, so that they “bring (forth) no fruit to perfection” (Luke 8:14). Such are cast forth “like an untimely birth.”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
-Pink, A.W., Eternal Security or Perseverance of the Saints

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: firedome ]