Eternal security and unpardonable sin

[thegospelgeek]

BY the way, thanks for the rational debate. I am on another thread with Sal and he's driving me crazy. But I love him anyway,

 

[webdog]

I have heard people claim that Charles Stanley is a Millennial Exclusionist, but I have never seen proof of it. But I do know that Dr. Stanley believes that a person can be saved, stop believing, reject Christ, and still go to heaven. I know because I have a book he wrote where he said that very thing.

Where is this place represented by the "outer darkness" in Jesus' parable? To be in the "outer darkness" is to be in the kingdom of God but outside the circle of men and women whose faithfulness on this earth earned them a special rank or position of authority. (Eternal Security, p. 126, italics in original)

 

[Amy.G]

OK,

Just a recap of the thread, correct me if I'm wrong.

The topic is why do the subjects of Eternal Security and unpardonable sin keep coming up in studies, classes, etc.

There are 4 different main views and thousnands of variations.

1. Amy is of the mindset that if one truly beleives they will never stop beleiving.
2. Webdog and Dr. Timo beleive one can stop beleiving yet are still saved.
3. Myself and drfuss feel one forfiets their salvation when one stops beleiving
4. There is the Weslyan Arminian veiw that one can continue in sin and be unrepentant, thus forfieting their salvation. So far we have no one defending this view.

I see similarities in Amy's view and my own, yet they differ somewhat. I see large differences in my view and that of webdog and Dr. Timo

Your are correct on my view. :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

Where is this place represented by the "outer darkness" in Jesus' parable? To be in the "outer darkness" is to be in the kingdom of God but outside the circle of men and women whose faithfulness on this earth earned them a special rank or position of authority. (Eternal Security, p. 126, italics in original)

Well, I admit that sounds weird, but he doesn't say they're in hell. Although, I'm not sure what he means. Never heard that one before. Does he go into detail about it?

 

[webdog]

OK,

Just a recap of the thread, correct me if I'm wrong.

The topic is why do the subjects of Eternal Security and unpardonable sin keep coming up in studies, classes, etc.

There are 4 different main views and thousnands of variations.

1. Amy is of the mindset that if one truly beleives they will never stop beleiving.
2. Webdog and Dr. Timo beleive one can stop beleiving yet are still saved.
3. Myself and drfuss feel one forfiets their salvation when one stops beleiving
4. There is the Weslyan Arminian veiw that one can continue in sin and be unrepentant, thus forfieting their salvation. So far we have no one defending this view.

I see similarities in Amy's view and my own, yet they differ somewhat. I see large differences in my view and that of webdog and Dr. Timo

The Bible says Abraham believed, and it was credited with righteousness, which is eternal life. If Abraham stopped believing eternal life would change to temporal life. The moment you receive eternal life, you either have it eternally, or you don't. Just like the various covenants that followed that could, and were broken, our relationship with God can also be broken, but the righteousness (eternal life) will never be. I find it odd that those who believe you can lose your salvation put an asterisk by "no man" in the Scripture that states no man can remove them from My Father's hand, and instead interpret that verse to mean no man (but me).

 

[Amy.G]

The Bible says Abraham believed, and it was credited with righteousness, which is eternal life. If Abraham stopped believing eternal life would change to temporal life. The moment you receive eternal life, you either have it eternally, or you don't. Just like the various covenants that followed that could, and were broken, our relationship with God can also be broken, but the righteousness (eternal life) will never be. I find it odd that those who believe you can lose your salvation put an asterisk by "no man" in the Scripture that states no man can remove them from My Father's hand, and instead interpret that verse to mean no man (but me).

I can't makes sense of that. If you stopped believing you cannot be saved, because we are saved "by grace, through faith". No belief=no faith=no salvation.

 

[thegospelgeek]

The Bible says Abraham believed, and it was credited with righteousness, which is eternal life. If Abraham stopped believing eternal life would change to temporal life. The moment you receive eternal life, you either have it eternally, or you don't. Just like the various covenants that followed that could, and were broken, our relationship with God can also be broken, but the righteousness (eternal life) will never be. I find it odd that those who believe you can lose your salvation put an asterisk by "no man" in the Scripture that states no man can remove them from My Father's hand, and instead interpret that verse to mean no man (but me).

Agreed Abraham's belief is what made him righteous. I understand your thoughts about nothing can take our salvation and this goes along with scripture. However, I take John 3:17 to mean a continued beleif because of the warnings of not enduring, not abiding, not continuing, etc.

Is it OK if I ask if you beleive in rewards in Heaven. Is this why scripture warns us not to fall away?

 

[webdog]

Well, I admit that sounds weird, but he doesn't say they're in hell. Although, I'm not sure what he means. Never heard that one before. Does he go into detail about it?

Next page...

We do not know how long this time of rejoicing and sorrow will last. Those whose works are burned will not weep and gnash their teeth for eternity. At some point we know God will comfort those who have suffered loss. (p.127)

 

[thegospelgeek]

I can't makes sense of that. If you stopped believing you cannot be saved, because we are saved "by grace, through faith". No belief=no faith=no salvation.

We are on the same page here. Hence why i said there are many similarities.

 

[webdog]

I can't makes sense of that. If you stopped believing you cannot be saved, because we are saved "by grace, through faith". No belief=no faith=no salvation.

You don't believe a believer can be deceived into thinking he no longer believes? What about physiologically? Does a believer with Alzheimers lose his/her salvation?

 

[Amy.G]

Next page...

We do not know how long this time of rejoicing and sorrow will last. Those whose works are burned will not weep and gnash their teeth for eternity. At some point we know God will comfort those who have suffered loss. (p.127)

I must say I'm very disappointed to learn this about Dr. Stanley.

 

[drfuss]

OK,

Just a recap of the thread, correct me if I'm wrong.

The topic is why do the subjects of Eternal Security and unpardonable sin keep coming up in studies, classes, etc.

There are 4 different main views and thousnands of variations.

1. Amy is of the mindset that if one truly beleives they will never stop beleiving.
2. Webdog and Dr. Timo beleive one can stop beleiving yet are still saved.
3. Myself and drfuss feel one forfiets their salvation when one stops beleiving
4. There is the Weslyan Arminian veiw that one can continue in sin and be unrepentant, thus forfieting their salvation. So far we have no one defending this view.

I see similarities in Amy's view and my own, yet they differ somewhat. I see large differences in my view and that of webdog and Dr. Timo

drfuss: Number 4 should read the following:

4. There is the Wesleyan Arminian view that one can continue to believe, but if he refuses (over a period of time) to confess, repent and be remorseful for known sins, he can lose his salvation while still believing.

Commiting sins has nothing to do with it. Resisting the Holy Spirit in confessing and repenting of known sins is the problem.

 

[Amy.G]

You don't believe a believer can be deceived into thinking he no longer believes? What about physiologically? Does a believer with Alzheimers lose his/her salvation?

That is not the same thing as making a lucid intentional decision to "stop believing".

No, people with brain disorders do not lose their salvation.

 

[webdog]

I must say I'm very disappointed to learn this about Dr. Stanley.

...as was I when I found out he was an ME'er. :tear:

 

[webdog]

That is not the same thing as making a lucid intentional decision to "stop believing".

No, people with brain disorders do not lose their salvation.

Can satan influence our lucid, intentional decisions?

 

[Amy.G]

Can satan influence our lucid, intentional decisions?

Satan can influence, but he cannot snatch you out of God's hand through deception, disease or any other thing. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
The Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit that Jesus Christ is Lord. Our spirit cannot be deceived on this matter by Satan. If it could, then there is no eternal security whatsoever.

 

[MB]

I have heard people claim that Charles Stanley is a Millennial Exclusionist, but I have never seen proof of it. But I do know that Dr. Stanley believes that a person can be saved, stop believing, reject Christ, and still go to heaven. I know because I have a book he wrote where he said that very thing.

Hi Amy;
Charles Stanley is right we cnnot loose our Salvation because keeping it doesn't depend on our righteouness or our faithfullness.

It is my opinion most have no idea of what grace really is. Paul said;

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

No matter what some may say, "Grace" is an attribute of God and in that, Grace is infinite. Just like all His other attributes. One cannot sin so much that they cannot be saved by God. And once under His righteousness our sin can never dull the righteousness of Christ. All God will ever see in judgment is the righteousness of Christ in us. This is why there is eternal Salvation. Those here who believe they can loose their Salvation have a lot to learn about the Grace and righteousness of Jesus Christ. They must believe they are saved by there own righteousness.
MB

 

[MB]

I have heard people claim that Charles Stanley is a Millennial Exclusionist, but I have never seen proof of it. But I do know that Dr. Stanley believes that a person can be saved, stop believing, reject Christ, and still go to heaven. I know because I have a book he wrote where he said that very thing.

Hi Amy;
Charles Stanley is right we cnnot loose our Salvation because keeping it doesn't depend on our righteouness or our faithfullness.

It is my opinion most have no idea of what grace really is. Paul said;

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

No matter what some may say, "Grace" is an attribute of God and in that, Grace is infinite. Just like all His other attributes. One cannot sin so much that they cannot be saved by God. And once under His righteousness our sin can never dull the righteousness of Christ. All God will ever see in judgment is the righteousness of Christ in us. This is why there is eternal Salvation. Those here who believe they can loose their Salvation have a lot to learn about the Grace and righteousness of Jesus Christ. They must believe they are saved by there own righteousness.
MB

 

[MB]

I have heard people claim that Charles Stanley is a Millennial Exclusionist, but I have never seen proof of it. But I do know that Dr. Stanley believes that a person can be saved, stop believing, reject Christ, and still go to heaven. I know because I have a book he wrote where he said that very thing.

Hi Amy;
Charles Stanley is right we cnnot loose our Salvation because keeping it doesn't depend on our righteouness or our faithfullness.

It is my opinion most have no idea of what grace really is. Paul said;

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

No matter what some may say, "Grace" is an attribute of God and in that, Grace is infinite. Just like all His other attributes. One cannot sin so much that they cannot be saved by God. And once under His righteousness our sin can never dull the righteousness of Christ. All God will ever see in judgment is the righteousness of Christ in us. This is why there is eternal Salvation. Those here who believe they can loose their Salvation have a lot to learn about the Grace and righteousness of Jesus Christ. They must believe they are saved by there own righteousness.
MB

 

[webdog]

Satan can influence, but he cannot snatch you out of God's hand through deception, disease or any other thing. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
The Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit that Jesus Christ is Lord. Our spirit cannot be deceived on this matter by Satan. If it could, then there is no eternal security whatsoever.

We can quench the Spirit, however. I believe everyone at some point doubts their salvation, some more than others. Where does this doubt come from if our spirit cannot be decieved? How can true beleivers change their theology to that of works based salvation?