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Eternal Subordination of the Son. Biblical?

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loDebar

Well-Known Member
Father -Son implies one exits before another and that God who became flesh is subordinate to God the Father.
He was God. He was flesh.
We too are spiritual beings(not God though) as while we are fleshly beings.
 
HankD

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Technically speaking the Father-Son relationship did not exist before the incarnation UNLESS the term begotten of the Father implies that relationship in eternity.

From my point of view "Begotten" does not imply subordination but is a descriptive word of a coequal relationship.

That is the Son (Logos) emanates from the "bosom" (innermost being) of the Father. An eternal relationship.
bosom kolpos Liddell Scott:23019 bosom, womb.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (and the Son).
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
We have to consider the thee as co equal GOD.

and we must be careful not to imply that Jesus is created or a lessor God as many do.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
HankD said:
Technically speaking the Father-Son relationship did not exist before the incarnation UNLESS the term begotten of the Father implies that relationship in eternity.

From my point of view "Begotten" does not imply subordination but is a descriptive word of a coequal relationship.

That is the Son (Logos) emanates from the "bosom" (innermost being) of the Father. An eternal relationship.
bosom kolpos Liddell Scott:23019 bosom, womb.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (and the Son).
Click to expand...
Eternal Sonship while an extra Biblica! term like Trinity, has always been true and has no cause.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Martin Marprelate said:
Hebrews 13:8. 'Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.'
In the light of this verse, we must declare that the Lord Jesus has always been God the Son. When Psalms 2:7 says, 'I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to Me, "You are My Son, today I have begotten You.."' it is speaking of the Decree of God, made in eternity.

There is therefore an asymmetric relationship between the Persons of the Trinity. Although they are all God, they so not relate to each other in the same way. The Father eternally begets the Son; the Son does not beget the Father. Father and Son send the Spirit; the Spirit does not send the Father.

Yet in the Incarnation, the Lord Jesus willingly became something He had never been: a Servant or slave. 'taking the form of a bondservant, coming in the likeness of men' (Philippians 2:7). Yet, although this is something that happened in time, it is also is also something that was decreed in eternity, in the Everlasting Covenant, so that Christ is 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world' so that Christ might be the Seed of the woman who should crush the serpent's head (Genesis 3:15; c.f. Titus 1:2).

So Christ was always God the Son, but He became the Suffering Servant in order to redeem mankind, though that task had been decreed from all time.
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Yes, Jesus became subordinate to the Father while here Incarnated, but did he not receive back His full glorify when ascended, and thus no longer subordinate?
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
loDebar said:
Jesus was not a son until He became a man. The Father was not a Father to God who became a man until Jesus became a man.
God who became a son of man was not a son in Heaven. He was in Heaven while as a man on earth.
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There is the eternal Sonship of jesus...
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
loDebar said:
We have to consider the thee as co equal GOD.

and we must be careful not to imply that Jesus is created or a lessor God as many do.
Click to expand...
In the incarnation the Word, who being the Son of God became (John 1:14) part of His creation in becoming fully man. He in doing so He did not cease being fully God (John 1:9-10; Hebrews 1:3).
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Yes. John 1:2. John 1:18.
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neither verse says what you suppose.

He was not a son nor the Father a father until God became the son as a human.

He was God and existed with God yet was separate same as the Holy Spirit.
Unity yet a individual
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
loDebar said:
neither verse says what you suppose.

He was not a son nor the Father a father until God became the son as a human.

He was God and existed with God yet was separate same as the Holy Spirit.
Unity yet a individual
Click to expand...
John 1:2 say He was "with God." John 1:18 says He is the Son. He being who appears for the invisible God, BTW.
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
John 1:2 say He was "with God." John 1:18 says He is the Son. He being who appears for the invisible God, BTW.
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both are true. His sonship as a human shows He is a son of God having no earthly father.

The purpose of being a human son is not to mean He was a son to the Father in Heaven
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
loDebar said:
both are true. His sonship as a human shows He is a son of God having no earthly father.

The purpose of being a human son is not to mean He was a son to the Father in Heaven
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You are wrong. ". . . But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. . . ." -- Hebrews 1:8. ". . . Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre. . . ." -- Psalms 45:6. ". . . Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth?
what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?" -- Proverbs 30:4. So the man Jesus said of Himself, ". . . And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. . . ." -- John 3:13.
". . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].. . ." -- John 1:18. Genesis 12:7 for example. All appearances of God were none other than the Son of God. So what Jesus said in His humanity as recorded in John 14:6 was true before His incarnation. John 8:24. 2 John 1:9. 1 John 4:9.
 
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percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
HankD said:
Technically speaking the Father-Son relationship did not exist before the incarnation UNLESS the term begotten of the Father implies that relationship in eternity.

From my point of view "Begotten" does not imply subordination but is a descriptive word of a coequal relationship.

That is the Son (Logos) emanates from the "bosom" (innermost being) of the Father. An eternal relationship.
bosom kolpos Liddell Scott:23019 bosom, womb.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (and the Son).
Click to expand...

Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son or does it proceed from the Father through the Son?

at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; Acts 2:33 YLT
“Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. NKJV

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16,17 KJV
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7 KJV
 
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HankD

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
percho said:
Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son or does it proceed from the Father through the Son?
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Depends on your point of view.

Does the sun rise or does the earth spin on its axis giving that impression.?

My understanding is that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son although the Greek church says the Father.
 
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