Evangelism

[Rippon]

I wonder if Bob and others that practice an entrainment [sic]form of evangelism tell people that they may or will be persecuted for their faith. I wonder if they tell others that they may be killed, may get fired, may file bankruptcy, and that satan and his servants would attack them. Those that openly stand for the gospel will be persecuted. But those that practice an entertainment based evangelism that DOES NOT confront the sin and the destination of the world will be ignored by the world.

I find that your posts are prideful John. In Bob's case, he has a heart for the Lord and a burden for souls that is quite evident. For you to slam him at every opportunity is arrogant on your part.

PS- Even my spouse whom is not a CAL but an Arminian soul winner see's a problem with the evangelism methods of Bob.

Not "whom" John. I have been reminding you for some time now, it's who. There are rare occasions where "whom" is suitable. So just get in the practice of saying who.

 

[Bob Dudley]

OK, here's the thing, I was saved when I was 14 years old. I am now 57. The math says I've been a child of God for about 43 years. I have been in full time ministry for about 10 years, now. In all of that time I have never heard (or read) such vile and disgusting things coming out of someone that claims to be a Christian. I almost feel like I am talking with people from Westboro Baptist Church.

This will be the one and only time I talk about this. So, if you respond to this post you will be speaking to yourself. A couple of you on here should be ashamed of yourself. How dare you suggest that someone who believes they sincerely have asked Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior is lying or delusional. How dare you suggest that the precious brothers and sisters that worked from their hearts to explain to these people how to be saved have given them some sort of false gospel.

One of you called me an Armenian as thought it was a dirty word. And, you gave the impression that, at least in your little world, there are only Calvinists and Armenians. I am an independent, fundamental Baptist. Fundamentalists think both of you are wrong, Calvinists AND Armenians. But, if you want to talk to someone about how to have an intimate relationship with Jesus, we'll pray for you.

Your negatively and holier-than-thou attitudes are crushing my spirit and, I am sure, the spirit of others on this board.

For now on, on this board, I will only talk about the following:

1. testimonies of people I have led to the Lord

2. testimonies of my friends and people they have led to the Lord

3. discussions of how to train other Christians to witness in a loving and effective manner

4. discussions on effective techniques for sharing the greatest gift in history - salvation through Jesus

5. discussions on how to set up effective, evangelistically oriented, outreach programs

My humblest apologies if I have offended any of my brothers or sisters in Christ. But, the negative, mean and hateful posts really need to stop.

By this shall allmen know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (John 13:35)

 

[Winman]

Not so sure it represents salvation....

Leprosy represented the grossest sin;

Besides, this leper, as Luke says, was "full of leprosy", Luke 5:12 see the note there; and he might be pronounced clean by the priest, though not healed, and so might go into any city or synagogue: the law concerning such an one, in Leviticus 13:1 is a very surprising one; that if only there were some risings and appearances of the leprosy here and there, the man was unclean; but if "the leprosy covered all his flesh", then he was pronounced clean; and such was this man: he was a very lively emblem of a poor vile sinner, full of sin and iniquity, who is brought to see himself all over covered with sin, when he comes to Christ for pardon and cleansing; and is so considered by Christ the high priest, when he applies his justifying righteousness and sin purging blood to his conscience. A leper, by the JewsF4, is called רשע, "a wicked" man; for they suppose leprosy comes upon him for evil speaking. This account is ushered in with a "behold", as a note of admiration and attention, expressing the wonderfulness of the miracle wrought, and the seasonableness of it to confirm the doctrines Christ had been preaching to the multitude. This man came of his own accord, having heard of the fame of Christ;

 

[DHK]

You are confusing two different things. In the case of the lepers, no one was coming forward for them, asking for them to be healed. In their case they were asking healing for themselves. They HAD to have faith or Jesus could not have healed them. You yourself have said many times God does not give grace to unbelievers.

No, I said God does not give spiritual gifts to unbelievers.
Christ himself said he gives grace to all: saved and unsaved alike.
He makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
Likewise the sun: He makes the sun to shine upon the just and the unjust.
He shows both mercy and grace to both. Without mercy and grace we would all die. Who keeps our hearts beating? It is by the grace of God we live and breathe and walk, etc.

The lepers asked to be healed, not to be saved. Faith is confidence. They had confidence that Jesus could heal them because they saw the miracles they did. It is very possible that they had no intent on being saved. Everyone in the hospitals want to be healed, but some of them are very hardened against the gospel, and won't even listen to it miracle or no miracle.
The rich man's five brother's, according to Abraham, would not have come to Christ, even if one who had risen from the dead had come to see them.

Mar 6:1

And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Why couldn't Jesus do any mighty works among his own countrymen? Because of their unbelief.

This unbelief refers to who Christ is. They denied that he was the Messiah; they denied his deity: Christ the Son of God. That was their unbelief. Take things in their context.

There are times when a person had to believe for another, as when the young girl died. She could not believe, so her parents had to believe for her. The demon possessed boy was out of his mind and could not believe for himself.

Does that hold true for salvation?

But when people could believe, they had to believe before Jesus could heal them. Jesus did not reward unbelief.

He did in Mark chapter one and in Mark chapter 3, where he healed hundreds if not thousands--all who came to him. It was out of mercy--faith or no faith. He can heal as he wills. He is not bound by people's faith. That is a ridiculous condition that only Charismatics use. And then when the sick person is not healed they cruelly put the blame on the sick person and tell them "It is your fault; you didn't have enough faith."
That is a cruel joke. The Faith healer is the one that needs to have the faith to heal, not the sick person. Thus did Peter and Jesus heal without demanding faith.

You are turning into a Calvinist, you believe Jesus heals people without faith, just like they believe Jesus regenerates someone without faith. They believe Jesus regenerates a man so that he can HAVE faith.

Jesus can heal whomever he wants, wherever he wants, for whatever purpose he wants. He is not limited by your theology. He is God Almighty!!
Healing is not equivalent to salvation.

 

[evangelist6589]

OK, here's the thing, I was saved when I was 14 years old. I am now 57. The math says I've been a child of God for about 43 years. I have been in full time ministry for about 10 years, now. In all of that time I have never heard (or read) such vile and disgusting things coming out of someone that claims to be a Christian. I almost feel like I am talking with people from Westboro Baptist Church.

This will be the one and only time I talk about this. So, if you respond to this post you will be speaking to yourself. A couple of you on here should be ashamed of yourself. How dare you suggest that someone who believes they sincerely have asked Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior is lying or delusional. How dare you suggest that the precious brothers and sisters that worked from their hearts to explain to these people how to be saved have given them some sort of false gospel.

One of you called me an Armenian as thought it was a dirty word. And, you gave the impression that, at least in your little world, there are only Calvinists and Armenians. I am an independent, fundamental Baptist. Fundamentalists think both of you are wrong, Calvinists AND Armenians. But, if you want to talk to someone about how to have an intimate relationship with Jesus, we'll pray for you.

Your negatively and holier-than-thou attitudes are crushing my spirit and, I am sure, the spirit of others on this board.

For now on, on this board, I will only talk about the following:

1. testimonies of people I have led to the Lord

2. testimonies of my friends and people they have led to the Lord

3. discussions of how to train other Christians to witness in a loving and effective manner

4. discussions on effective techniques for sharing the greatest gift in history - salvation through Jesus

5. discussions on how to set up effective, evangelistically oriented, outreach programs

My humblest apologies if I have offended any of my brothers or sisters in Christ. But, the negative, mean and hateful posts really need to stop.

By this shall allmen know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (John 13:35)

As I said I have NO IDEA who got saved at this event and it may be possible those that prayed were legit converts and true disciples of the Lord. However I will also add Bob (and call it hate if you wish) that if the doctrine of repentance from sin, the lordship of Christ, and justification by faith were not addressed I seriously question the results of this event. However since I am far from perfect and not a mind reader, nor was there I just do not know. I never once called anyone at this event a false convert intentionally as once again I simply do not know.

But hear this story Bob. My cousin Paul is in prison for the 2nd time. He got saved in a seeker church that would practice methods of evangelism like what you speak of. He claims salvation & perhaps he is indeed saved I just do not know. However as of late I mailed him two books strong on Sin and repentance and true conversion called The Vanishing Conscience and Hard to Believe. I heard from my aunt yesterday that Paul has been reading the books and enjoys them. I do know that such books would not be recommended by the pastoral staff at his church, nor the strong view on sin, and repentance and true conversion. It was a blessing to hear this and I pray for my cousin and look forward to hearing more from him in the future. Since he is in prison he can read and study the word like never before. The books will help him get to the deeper meaning of the scripture on these issues. Praise the Lord! I hope he will repent and turn to the Lord in prison if he realizes that he was a false convert.

 

[Don]

As I said I have NO IDEA who got saved at this event and it may be possible those that prayed were legit converts and true disciples of the Lord. However I will also add Bob (and call it hate if you wish) that if the doctrine of repentance from sin, the lordship of Christ, and justification by faith were not addressed I seriously question the results of this event. However since I am far from perfect and not a mind reader, nor was there I just do not know. I never once called anyone at this event a false convert intentionally as once again I simply do not know.

But hear this story Bob. My cousin Paul is in prison for the 2nd time. He got saved in a seeker church that would practice methods of evangelism like what you speak of. He claims salvation & perhaps he is indeed saved I just do not know. However as of late I mailed him two books strong on Sin and repentance and true conversion called The Vanishing Conscience and Hard to Believe. I heard from my aunt yesterday that Paul has been reading the books and enjoys them. I do know that such books would not be recommended by the pastoral staff at his church, nor the strong view on sin, and repentance and true conversion. It was a blessing to hear this and I pray for my cousin and look forward to hearing more from him in the future. Since he is in prison he can read and study the word like never before. The books will help him get to the deeper meaning of the scripture on these issues. Praise the Lord! I hope he will repent and turn to the Lord in prison if he realizes that he was a false convert.

Let's start with the phrase "I'm no mind reader." I would correct that to: you're no heart reader. None of us are.

I'm flabbergasted that your cousin shows a hunger for Christ, which substantiates his claim to salvation; but you end with still referring to him as possibly a false convert. Consider the calvinist view: no man hungers for the things of God unless God draws him (indicating he is one of the elected), or he's already saved (because the dead in sin have no desire for the things of God).

And to top it off, you expect a couple of books to show him whether he's a false convert or not. Did you verify that he has a bible, or did you send him one? Or have you placed the issue of salvation upon man-written material rather than God-breathed words?

 

[evangelist6589]

Let's start with the phrase "I'm no mind reader." I would correct that to: you're no heart reader. None of us are.

I'm flabbergasted that your cousin shows a hunger for Christ, which substantiates his claim to salvation; but you end with still referring to him as possibly a false convert. Consider the calvinist view: no man hungers for the things of God unless God draws him (indicating he is one of the elected), or he's already saved (because the dead in sin have no desire for the things of God).

And to top it off, you expect a couple of books to show him whether he's a false convert or not. Did you verify that he has a bible, or did you send him one? Or have you placed the issue of salvation upon man-written material rather than God-breathed words?

The books will help him get to the deeper meaning of the scripture on these issues. Praise the Lord! I hope he will repent and turn to the Lord in prison if he realizes that he was a false convert.

 

[Winman]

No, I said God does not give spiritual gifts to unbelievers.
Christ himself said he gives grace to all: saved and unsaved alike.
He makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
Likewise the sun: He makes the sun to shine upon the just and the unjust.
He shows both mercy and grace to both. Without mercy and grace we would all die. Who keeps our hearts beating? It is by the grace of God we live and breathe and walk, etc.

The lepers asked to be healed, not to be saved. Faith is confidence. They had confidence that Jesus could heal them because they saw the miracles they did. It is very possible that they had no intent on being saved. Everyone in the hospitals want to be healed, but some of them are very hardened against the gospel, and won't even listen to it miracle or no miracle.
The rich man's five brother's, according to Abraham, would not have come to Christ, even if one who had risen from the dead had come to see them.


This unbelief refers to who Christ is. They denied that he was the Messiah; they denied his deity: Christ the Son of God. That was their unbelief. Take things in their context.

Does that hold true for salvation?

He did in Mark chapter one and in Mark chapter 3, where he healed hundreds if not thousands--all who came to him. It was out of mercy--faith or no faith. He can heal as he wills. He is not bound by people's faith. That is a ridiculous condition that only Charismatics use. And then when the sick person is not healed they cruelly put the blame on the sick person and tell them "It is your fault; you didn't have enough faith."
That is a cruel joke. The Faith healer is the one that needs to have the faith to heal, not the sick person. Thus did Peter and Jesus heal without demanding faith.

Jesus can heal whomever he wants, wherever he wants, for whatever purpose he wants. He is not limited by your theology. He is God Almighty!!
Healing is not equivalent to salvation.

We will have to agree to disagree. I believe in "common grace", God makes it rain on the just and the unjust, and the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men, etc... but Jesus did not heal unbelievers.

Luk 19:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Are you telling me that only the thankful leper had to have faith to be healed here? Nonsense.

 

[Winman]

The books will help him get to the deeper meaning of the scripture on these issues. Praise the Lord! I hope he will repent and turn to the Lord in prison if he realizes that he was a false convert.

Don's post went right in one ear of yours, and out the other.

You are not getting it, if Calvinism is true, he would not be interested in these books if he were a false convert.

Isn't that what you believe? But you are acting like you believe an unregenerated man could have an interest in spiritual matters. That would make you an Arminian.

Are you an Arminian?

 

[Don]

The books will help him get to the deeper meaning of the scripture on these issues. Praise the Lord! I hope he will repent and turn to the Lord in prison if he realizes that he was a false convert.

Does he have a bible? Shouldn't he also be reading that?

 

[JonC]

What John has failed to realize is that by his own standard he would be labeled a “false convert,” and if you doubt this re-read his posts. I am not questioning his salvation but I am questioning this standard in which he believes God has called him to separate the wheat from the tares. I do not understand how someone with such an earnest heart for God can go so wrong in application.

 

[evangelist6589]

Does he have a bible? Shouldn't he also be reading that?

The books will help him get to the deeper meaning of the scripture on these issues. Being in the word is a given.

 

[Rolfe]

You pay people a dollar to listen to you or use counterfeit money tracts to get their attention. Why wouldn't it be fair to call that technique as carnival as a jump house? At least a jump house is exactly what it is represented as.

:thumbsup: Sad that it needs to be said. It is as if the method used to present the message is more important than the Gospel itself.

 

[DHK]

We will have to agree to disagree. I believe in "common grace", God makes it rain on the just and the unjust, and the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men, etc... but Jesus did not heal unbelievers.

Luk 19:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Are you telling me that only the thankful leper had to have faith to be healed here? Nonsense.

Have you ever considered that here, Jesus meant "whole" as in both physically and spiritually.
The others were made "whole" only physically.
The thankful leper was made "whole" spiritually. He was the only one who gave any evidence of the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Winman]

Have you ever considered that here, Jesus meant "whole" as in both physically and spiritually.
The others were made "whole" only physically.
The thankful leper was made "whole" spiritually. He was the only one who gave any evidence of the fruit of the Spirit.

Have you ever considered that when Jesus said, "thy faith hath made thee whole" he was speaking of just being healed of leprosy?

Context, context, context, right???

 

[DHK]

Have you ever considered that when Jesus said, "thy faith hath made thee whole" he was speaking of just being healed of leprosy?

Context, context, context, right???

Like you said, we will have to agree to disagree.
Jesus healed multitudes without demanding faith.
So did Peter. Examine Acts 5:16.

That is the case today as well:
[FONT=&quot]James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/FONT]

Whose faith is required for one to be healed? The sick person's??

 

[Winman]

Like you said, we will have to agree to disagree.
Jesus healed multitudes without demanding faith.
So did Peter. Examine Acts 5:16.

That is the case today as well:
[FONT=&quot]James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/FONT]

Whose faith is required for one to be healed? The sick person's??

That verse hardly proves your view, "Is there any sick among YOU?"

He is speaking of believers here.

The people who came to Jesus (or the apostles) for healing had faith or they wouldn't have come.

Acts 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

Paul saw this man had "faith to be healed", you must have faith to be healed.

 

[DHK]

That verse hardly proves your view, "Is there any sick among YOU?"

He is speaking of believers here.

Yes he is. But the faith to be healed comes from the pastors not the sick. Don't assume that the believer is the one that has the faith to be healed. He may want to be healed, but is often skeptical in his innerself that God will actually do it.

The people who came to Jesus (or the apostles) for healing had faith or they wouldn't have come.

But you equate healing with salvation. Jesus said: "You follow me because you won't to be fed." (after the feeding of the 5,000). They saw his miracles and knew what he could do. Faith to be healed is not faith to be saved. You equate the two. They are not the same. They had confidence that Jesus could heal, but many did not put that same confidence in Him as Messiah. Those are two very differeent things.

Acts 14:8

And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

Faith to be healed, not saved.

Paul saw this man had "faith to be healed", you must have faith to be healed.

Not all the time. God can heal whomever he wants, whenever he wants for whatever purpose he wants.
He is God Amighty. He is not confined by anyone or anything.

 

[evangelist6589]

Hey Bob.

I would like to contribute financially to the growth of these new converts. It is not for me to tell who is true and who is false as I have said many times. Bob can you PM your address? A great book for new believers walking in the faith and Lordship of Christ is called Follow Me by David Platt or Desiring God by John Piper.

 

[Rolfe]

Hey Bob.

I would like to contribute financially to the growth of these new converts.

Can you afford it?