Evangelism

[Jordan Kurecki]

Here's a the thing. they may or not be saved, it depends on what their faith is in, if they are asking Jesus to save them, because they are trusting him, then they are saved, if they think asking Jesus is to save them is the beginning of a process of works to save them, then they are not saved.

it all comes down the heart of the person, one person may hear a solid Gospel presentation and yet have false assumptions or false teaching thats influenced them that causes them to react differently.

perfect example is someone with a JW backround hears that you must have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, well JW's use the phrase exercising faith as a synonym for works, therefore when the preacher gives an invitation to put your faith in Christ, he prays a pray to God with the idea of doing works. another person hears the message and comes from a Joel Osteen type backround.

It is not the prayer that saves you, it is the calling out to God in faith and repentance that saves you.

I will agree that whoever said 14 people believed in a false gospel needs to repent of the statement, unless we know what was preached than we really cannot be critical.

I was saved after an invitation, and I prayed the sinners prayer and was God saved my soul, really though I was probably saved the moment I made the decision that I was going to go talk to my Pastor and call upon Christ to save me, my faith is what saved me, the prayer is just a fruit of that.

 

[Winman]

Despite all its problems, God can bring the elect to salvation via this method, but its not Biblical.

And you are wrong. What did the publican do to get saved? He simply cried out to God to be merciful to him, a sinner. That's it. That is about as simple as you can get.

And Jesus said this man was saved.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You are not getting it John, because you listen to men and not the scriptures.

The Pharisee was completely sure he was saved. Why? Because he did good works that proves he was saved. He did not commit evil sins like extortion (which publicans were known for) he was not unjust, or an adulterer, he fasted twice in the week, and gave tithes of all he possessed.

You would have been sure this Pharisee was saved with your view John, he was DOING everything a believer is supposed to do.

But he wasn't saved was he? No, and why not? Because he trusted in HIMSELF that he was righteous.

The publican was just the opposite, he did not dare boast that he was a good man doing everything God commanded. No, he simply beat on his chest and begged God to have mercy on him.

And he was saved.

John, a lot of these folks that are DOING all sorts of good works are completely LOST. And a lot of the folks you think are terrible sinners are SAVED.

You just don't get it. Faith is DEPENDING on Jesus alone to save you, it is not believing a set of facts and doing good works.

 

[Winman]

Bob, padredurand, John C, WinMan and others read this quote.

Pragmatism


The book above is a good one with all the scripture references, the quotations by Spurgeon, BB Warfield, and other solid teachers of the past. So lets take a look at the passages the author cites and see if they are Biblical or not, or if I am just worshipping a book as some will claim.
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1 Thes 3:2-6 (NIV)
We sent Timothy, who is our brother and co-worker in God’s service in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, 3 so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. For you know quite well that we are destined for them. 4 In fact, when we were with you, we kept telling you that we would be persecuted. And it turned out that way, as you well know. 5 For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter had tempted you and that our labors might have been in vain.

Timothy’s Encouraging Report
6 But Timothy has just now come to us from you and has brought good news about your faith and love. He has told us that you always have pleasant memories of us and that you long to see us, just as we also long to see you.

2 Cor 5:11-20 (NKJV)
11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.

Be Reconciled to God
12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
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I wonder if Bob and others that practice an entrainment form of evangelism tell people that they may or will be persecuted for their faith. I wonder if they tell others that they may be killed, may get fired, may file bankruptcy, and that satan and his servants would attack them. Those that openly stand for the gospel will be persecuted. But those that practice an entertainment based evangelism that DOES NOT confront the sin and the destination of the world will be ignored by the world.

PS- Even my spouse whom is not a CAL but an Arminian soul winner see's a problem with the evangelism methods of Bob.

Do you know how most people get saved? Most people get saved as children coming to Sunday School or Vacation Bible School. These kids come because it is fun, they enjoy the activities.

But a good church will give a true gospel presentation to these children, and many believe. This is in fact how most Christians became Christians.

Some folks will come to church because of a dinner, or a Christmas play. A good preacher will take advantage of these opportunities to preach the gospel. A lot of folks followed Jesus around because they thought he was going to feed them. He did not chase them off, he preached to them and taught them.

You get more bees with honey than vinegar John.

 

[Winman]

Despite all its problems, God can bring the elect to salvation via this method, but its not Biblical.

Just how long do you think it takes to get saved?

I bet if you were honest, you would say a lifetime, because you do not believe a person is saved until they show continued works and evidence of salvation.

Is that what the scriptures teach? NO. The scriptures teach 3000 folks got saved at Pentacost in ONE day.

The scripture teaches the Ethiopian eunuch got saved while riding in a carriage. He got baptized right then and there. Philip didn't insist that he be observed for weeks or months to make sure he showed evidence of salvation, he accepted the eunuch's confession that he believed Jesus was the Son of God.

You would have probably blown this man off as a false convert.

How about the Philipian jailer? He heard a short sermon and got saved and baptized that same hour. Paul and Silas did not insist he show evidence of salvation before they believed he was saved.

It is your view that is not scriptural.

 

[JonC]

Many of his quotes are in a certain book of mine, and this book speaks no positives of anyone trying to dumb down the gospel in an effort to entertain people into heaven.

Spurgeon is one of my favorites. If by “dumb down” the gospel you mean taking the time to meet people where they are in life and explain the gospel in a meaningful way then I disagree with your assessment of Spurgeon. If by “dumb down” you mean water down the gospel message to make what is left acceptable to an audience, then I agree that there is nothing positive about that method. BUT having an event, even providing an evening of entertainment to welcome the community, is not unbiblical as far as I can tell (if I have missed a passage forbidding such please provide Scripture).

These are the assumptions that you seem to have made (correct me if I am wrong, I do not want to ‘put words in your mouth’).

1. The event is an “effort to entertain people into heaven.” Where did you get this notion? Looking at brother Bob’s post, I do not understand were you came to this conclusion.

2. As I mentioned, how is being a part of the community by hosting this event unbiblical? I do not understand the biblical reference that would lead you to this conclusion.

3. In post #104 you asked if repentance from sin was emphasized. I do understand that repentance (without the ‘from sin’ part…if you mean “sins”). But it seems to me that you are displacing the emphasis OF the gospel message to focus on the need of the gospel. Is there a reason that you think the event in question did not share the gospel to include our need for a Savior?

It is amazing that 14 people heard the gospel and called out to the Lord and (even though we may never know their hearts for certain) members of a Christian forum prefer to criticize rather than rejoice. Ask yourself, is this like Christ or is this like the Pharisees (whose father is the Devil)? The angles would rejoice if even one of these 14 were truly saved…yet some here want to usurp God and deny salvation to 14 people who called out to Jesus to save them.

You want to know why I don’t call myself a Calvinist? I’ll tell you….better yet…I’ll show you. It has NOTHING to do with Calvinistic doctrine. Look at post #87. Bob announced an event to reach the lost in his community with the gospel of Christ. You called it unbiblical and offered a snide comment about Arminian churches. Look at post #104. 14 people called on the Lord for salvation…you replied “was repentance from sin and the Lordship of Christ emphasized? EVEN THE ANGLES REJOICE, John. Granted, these are not as bad as JamesL comments (which may very well amount to a denouncement of the gospel). But the reason I don’t call myself a Calvinist does have nothing to do with Calvinistic doctrine….it has to do with what a few Calvinists do with that doctrine.

 

[JonC]

Do you know how most people get saved? Most people get saved as children coming to Sunday School or Vacation Bible School. These kids come because it is fun, they enjoy the activities.

But a good church will give a true gospel presentation to these children, and many believe. This is in fact how most Christians became Christians.

I agree, Winman.

I am afraid that some get so caught up in book knowledge that they miss the work they were called to do. An evangelist who theologically analyzes the methods of another instead of rejoicing when told 14 people cried out to the Lord for salvation ... something is wrong. I may not know what...but something is terrible wrong.

 

[Winman]

I agree, Winman.

I am afraid that some get so caught up in book knowledge that they miss the work they were called to do. An evangelist who theologically analyzes the methods of another instead of rejoicing when told 14 people cried out to the Lord for salvation ... something is wrong. I may not know what...but something is terrible wrong.

It's because he is always reading books by folks like MacArthur and Washer who question everybody's salvation.

I would bet if you followed MacArthur and Washer around, you would discover they were just as sinful as every other man.

I am not saved because I am always faithful to Jesus, and thank God for that! I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me.

Some folks just do not understand the difference.

 

[JonC]

It's because he is always reading books by folks like MacArthur and Washer who question everybody's salvation.

Maybe you are right…I’m not sure (I guess that’s something John will have to wrestle with).

I hope I didn’t come off too brash with him; he is enthusiastic and trying to serve well and learn. But between JamesL and John’s comments I would have been kicked off the forum if I posted what I thought at the time. I’ll just say that we are judged by our fruit…not by our theology. Those two bore a bitter fruit on this thread.

 

[Winman]

Maybe you are right…I’m not sure (I guess that’s something John will have to wrestle with).

I hope I didn’t come off too brash with him; he is enthusiastic and trying to serve well and learn. But between JamesL and John’s comments I would have been kicked off the forum if I posted what I thought at the time. I’ll just say that we are judged by our fruit…not by our theology. Those two bore a bitter fruit on this thread.

He's pretty used to people being brash with him, I'm pretty sure he'll survive.

I am just the opposite of Evangelist, if someone tells me they accepted Jesus as their Saviour, I tend to believe them. That is not an easy thing to get folks to say.

Salvation is not what we do, but on whom we believe to save us.

A born again person is also compared to a tree in scripture. You cannot see a tree grow from day to day, but come back in ten years and you will see tremendous growth.

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

This is what is wrong with Lordship Salvation, it expects immediate results. That is not what the scriptures teach.

 

[Don]

I'm reminded of the ten lepers. All ten asked for healing, and Jesus gave it; nine turned their backs and we hear no more of them. One remained faithful....

 

[Winman]

I'm reminded of the ten lepers. All ten asked for healing, and Jesus gave it; nine turned their backs and we hear no more of them. One remained faithful....

Yes, but all ten were healed which represents salvation.

It is unfortunate (and sinful) that we are not more appreciative and thankful for our salvation.

 

[Don]

Yes, but all ten were healed which represents salvation.

It is unfortunate (and sinful) that we are not more appreciative and thankful for our salvation.

Not so sure it represents salvation....

 

[DHK]

Yes, but all ten were healed which represents salvation.

It is unfortunate (and sinful) that we are not more appreciative and thankful for our salvation.

[FONT=&quot]Mark 3:8 And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him.
9 And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him.
10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues.
11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

All that came to him were healed by him. We have no record of Jesus refusing to heal anyone. But not everyone healed was saved. A great multitude were healed, but there is no indication that all in the great multitude were saved.

Likewise in the ten lepers. We have evidence of only one who was thankful--the fruit of salvation, the evidence of being saved. It is unlikely that the other nine were saved.
[/FONT]

 

[padredurand]

Bob, padredurand, John C, WinMan and others read this quote.

I wonder if Bob and others that practice an entrainment form of evangelism tell people that they may or will be persecuted for their faith. I wonder if they tell others that they may be killed, may get fired, may file bankruptcy, and that satan and his servants would attack them. Those that openly stand for the gospel will be persecuted. But those that practice an entertainment based evangelism that DOES NOT confront the sin and the destination of the world will be ignored by the world.

PS- Even my spouse whom is not a CAL but an Arminian soul winner see's a problem with the evangelism methods of Bob.

I was going to let this go but you did mention me by name so I feel compelled to reply. I find it insulting that you would hold such a low view of the evangelistic work of your co-laborers. You assume that because we do not do the work as the evangelist EXACTLY like you we reduce the blood-bought Gospel of Jesus Christ to parlor tricks, magic beans like Jack and the Beanstalk and pithy incantations you call the sinner's prayer.

You equate different methodology with a different Gospel. Your ignorance is only outweighed by your arrogance.

... What's wrong with that? For one thing, the church has no business marketing its ministry as an alternative to secular amusements (1 Thes 3:2-6). That corrupts and cheapens the church's real mission. We are not carnival ambassadors (2 Cor 5:20). Knowing the terror of the Lord (v.11), motivated by the love of Christ (v.14), utterly made new by Him (v.17), we implore sinners to be reconciled to God (v.20). ... Feeding people's appetite for entertainment only exacerbates the problems of mindless emotion, apathy, and materialism. Quite frankly it is difficult to conceive of a ministry philosophy more contradictory to the pattern the Lord gave us. Proclaiming and explaining the Word for the maturing and HOLINESS of believers should be at the heart of every church's ministry.
Ashamed of the Gospel, When the Church Becomes like the world (1st edition), 71-72.

Why do you assume everyone beside you has abandoned the true ministry of the church? I bolded a portion of your quote to point out the obvious - the divine worship of the church is for (p)roclaiming and explaining the Word for the maturing and HOLINESS of believers should be at the heart of every church's ministry. That would be what we do inside the doors of the sanctuary when the saints are gathered be it Sunday morning, evening or mid-week. That is no place for a carnival. Bob's church wasn't gathered for worship. They got together to interact with generations that have no Christian memory on the ground of the lost. There they shared the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You pay people a dollar to listen to you or use counterfeit money tracts to get their attention. Why wouldn't it be fair to call that technique as carnival as a jump house? At least a jump house is exactly what it is represented as.

 

[Winman]

[FONT=&quot]Mark 3:8 And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him.
9 And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him.
10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues.
11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

All that came to him were healed by him. We have no record of Jesus refusing to heal anyone. But not everyone healed was saved. A great multitude were healed, but there is no indication that all in the great multitude were saved.

Likewise in the ten lepers. We have evidence of only one who was thankful--the fruit of salvation, the evidence of being saved. It is unlikely that the other nine were saved.
[/FONT]

That's nonsense, because you had to have faith in Jesus to be healed.

Why couldn't the disciples heal the demon possessed boy?

Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

You had to have faith in Jesus to come to him for healing. Jesus often remarked that folks were healed because of their faith.

Mat 9:20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Those lepers would not have been healed unless they had faith in Jesus. That does not guarantee they will be disciples. Many people get saved, but then go back into the world (rocky soil, thorny soil) and bear no fruit. But they are saved.

 

[InTheLight]

Bob's church wasn't gathered for worship. They got together to interact with generations that have no Christian memory on the ground of the lost. There they shared the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You pay people a dollar to listen to you or use counterfeit money tracts to get their attention. Why wouldn't it be fair to call that technique as carnival as a jump house? At least a jump house is exactly what it is represented as.

Good post.

I must be on Evan6589 ignore list, since he rarely responds to my posts. I think Don is also on it. I'd say you are next.

 

[DHK]

That's nonsense, because you had to have faith in Jesus to be healed.

Why couldn't the disciples heal the demon possessed boy?

Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

You had to have faith in Jesus to come to him for healing. Jesus often remarked that folks were healed because of their faith.

Mat 9:20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Those lepers would not have been healed unless they had faith in Jesus. That does not guarantee they will be disciples. Many people get saved, but then go back into the world (rocky soil, thorny soil) and bear no fruit. But they are saved.

Did Jesus lack faith? No, he healed them.
Did the disciples lack faith. Yes.
Did the one possessed lack faith. It didn't matter. It was irrelevant whether he had faith or not. He was healed in spite of "not having faith."

[FONT=&quot]Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.[/FONT]
--Peter healed everyone--thousands of those who came to him, whether or not they had faith. Faith is not a prerequiste to being healed.

Go to James 5. You are familiar with the passage, correct.
If any are sick let them go to the elders of the church.
They shall anoint him oil and pray, and the prayer of faith shall save the sick.

Whose faith will heal the sick, Winman?
Is faith a prerequisite on the part of the sick (the leper), or the elder (pastor)?

When the lepers came to Jesus, the only one required to have "faith" was Jesus himself. Of course since he is God, that statement isn't even necessary to say.

 

[Winman]

Did Jesus lack faith? No, he healed them.
Did the disciples lack faith. Yes.
Did the one possessed lack faith. It didn't matter. It was irrelevant whether he had faith or not. He was healed in spite of "not having faith."

[FONT=&quot]Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.[/FONT]
--Peter healed everyone--thousands of those who came to him, whether or not they had faith. Faith is not a prerequiste to being healed.

Go to James 5. You are familiar with the passage, correct.
If any are sick let them go to the elders of the church.
They shall anoint him oil and pray, and the prayer of faith shall save the sick.

Whose faith will heal the sick, Winman?
Is faith a prerequisite on the part of the sick (the leper), or the elder (pastor)?

When the lepers came to Jesus, the only one required to have "faith" was Jesus himself. Of course since he is God, that statement isn't even necessary to say.

It's too bad the scriptures refute you. The reason the demon possessed boy could not be healed was because of the apostles unbelief. But when the father of the boy asked Jesus if he could do anything to help his son, Jesus asked if he (the father) could believe.

Mar 9:22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

The father of the boy had to believe before Jesus would heal his son.

Oh well, another non-scriptural view of DHK's goes down the drain.

 

[DHK]

It's too bad the scriptures refute you. The reason the demon possessed boy could not be healed was because of the apostles unbelief. But when the father of the boy asked Jesus if he could do anything to help his son, Jesus asked if he (the father) could believe.

Mar 9:22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

The father of the boy had to believe before Jesus would heal his son.

Oh well, another non-scriptural view of DHK's goes down the drain.

This is today. This is NT instruction for churches today:

[FONT=&quot]James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/FONT]

Whose faith heals?

 

[Winman]

This is today. This is NT instruction for churches today:

[FONT=&quot]James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/FONT]

Whose faith heals?

You are confusing two different things. In the case of the lepers, no one was coming forward for them, asking for them to be healed. In their case they were asking healing for themselves. They HAD to have faith or Jesus could not have healed them. You yourself have said many times God does not give grace to unbelievers.

Mar 6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Why couldn't Jesus do any mighty works among his own countrymen? Because of their unbelief.

There are times when a person had to believe for another, as when the young girl died. She could not believe, so her parents had to believe for her. The demon possessed boy was out of his mind and could not believe for himself.

But when people could believe, they had to believe before Jesus could heal them. Jesus did not reward unbelief.

You are turning into a Calvinist, you believe Jesus heals people without faith, just like they believe Jesus regenerates someone without faith. They believe Jesus regenerates a man so that he can HAVE faith.

Total error.