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Event vrs Process Justification

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
quote:
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2Cor 5:10
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
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AS Christ said "By their FRUITs you SHALL know them... not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom but he who DOES The will of My Father"Matt 7.

BOTH emphasize the fact that in God's impartial system (Rom 2:11) it is the impartial rule of Rom 2:11-13 that is applied when ALL stand before Christ's judgment seat.

Some "suppose" that the Bible teaches the "recompense for EVIL DEEDS is HEAVEN".

Such has never been the case.

That is why in 1Cor 5 Paul writes to the SAME group as in 2Cor 5 and tells them "BE NOT DECEIVED"!!

In that previous letter he tells them about the "Recompense for BAD DEEDS".

Too obvious to miss.

To clear to obfuscate Lloyd.

Where does this leave your false ideas?

The fact that this APPLIES to believers as Paul points out in 1Cor 6 AND in 2Cor 5 ALSO can not be ignored!

Why not just believe it Lloyd?!

Accept the text for what it IS saying! Less pontificating and more pure acceptance of God's Word Bro!

In Christ,

Bob
 

ascund

New Member
Greetings

God is the center of OSAS - not human self-righteousness.

The plan of salvation is God’s active work to be passively received as a gift by faith in Jesus Christ. God planned fallen humanity’s redemption from before the foundation of the world and used a covenant with a one-sided disposition centered in Jesus Christ to extend His costly plan as a free gift to all humanity.

God’s plan rests in His promises, purpose, and provisions. Eternal Security is affirmed through what God has already done and what He has promised to do. Since God is faithful, He will fulfill His promises.

The NSNS view blatantly denigrates and shames God’s character. The Bible declares God’s faithfulness while the NSNS view declares God’s faithfulness only as we persevere. What kind of faithfulness would that be? If God isn’t faithful unless the believer endures to the end, then the believer’s salvation is a debt that God must pay (Rom 4:4, 15-16). If God isn’t faithful unless the believer endures to the end, then who can be saved? Who, in their right mind, thinks that they have the ability to be perfect even with God’s indwelling Spirit? Any one unaccounted sin is eternal damnation.

Scripture shows that the plan of redemption is entirely God’s work. He planned and initiated it. He continuously woos each sinner to Himself through Jesus. He then maintains the salvation that He gives to every believer. Each of these aspects will now be examined.

Before the Foundation of the World
The Bible declares that God laid the plans of redemption from before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8, 17:8). God knew humans would fall into sin and provided a way of redemption through Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:20). God’s plan was general in nature and was firmly centered in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:4). By His foreknowledge (Rom 8:29, 1 Pet 1:2), God offered this great plan of salvation to each and every human so that whosoever believes in Jesus should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16; John 11:26; Acts 2:21, 10:43; Rom 10:11,13; 1 John 5:13).

Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Greetigns

A Covenant with a One-sided disposition
God is now continuously wooing each and every person to Himself. He did this for all that have ever lived and He will do this for all who are yet to live. God is active in revealing the work of Jesus to sinners and wooing (bringing) them into a covenantal relationship with Himself. The principle image and overarching framework for this revelation and atoning redemption comes through the biblical covenants. Its primary meaning is developed from the Hebrew word berith (brit = covenant).
The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant. Psalm 25:14
Through a series of covenants, God has laid down the means to establish a divine-human relationship. As the initiator, God supplies one side (the biggest part) of the covenantal relationship. At the same time, God desires a return of covenant love and obedience from His covenantal partners. God is with His people through the covenant. But now that we’ve talked about a covenant, what is it?

In general a covenant “presents the solutions to all of life’s deep problems, including cleansing from sin and an intimate relationship with the God of the universe.” The genius for the covenant is The Trinity. The divine-human covenant relationship is a natural outflow of the relationship between the members of the Godhead.

A covenant is a sovereignly administered bond in blood with a pledge to death. A normal covenant arrangement with two humans involved the process of cutting animals into halves. The halves would be arranged to that the two covenantal partners would walk between the slain animals declaring that as it was done to the animals so shall it be done to the one who breaks the covenant. The two partners were thus acting out the solemnity of the bond in blood. A covenant commits people to one another. Our fellowship with God is not based upon the human faithfulness of spiritual growth toward perfect – but on covenant. Covenant is a legal word with many of the normal ideas of contracts and weddings.

Christ’s completed atoning work on the Cross was a fulfillment of the covenant between the Father and the Son in which the plan of redemption was conceived.

In the NT, God used the word diaqhvkh to reveal His intentions. The usual Greek word for covenant was sunqhvkh. Since the usual word sunqhvkh denotes equality between two contracting parties God choose diaqhvkh to emphasize that the disposition of the covenant is distinctly one-sided from God to humans. He is the prime mover in the covenant arrangement.

Genesis 15 provides a vivid description of the initiation of the Abrahamic covenant. God had Abraham slay some animals and birds (9) and divide the pieces into two parts (10). When the sun went down, Abraham fell into a deep sleep (12). In that sleep, God appeared to him and made great promises to Abraham (13-16). Then God, as a smoking furnace (17), passed through the slain pieces. It is very important to notice that God went through the slain pieces ALONE. Since God alone went through the slain pieces, God bound Himself to Abraham to fulfill His promises given then and reaffirming the promises of Gen 12 regarding a nation, land, and a world-wide blessing. Since Abraham was asleep he was not bound to do anything.

The NSNS view would take this one-sided covenant (diaqhvkh) and make it a two way venture between equal parties. It is easy to show the one-sided nature of God’s New Covenant. God gave us four versions of the New Covenant. They are found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Ezekiel 36:26-30, and Hebrews 8:8-13. The Hebrews 8 version is really a quotation of Jeremiah 31. The clauses of this eternal, wonderfully lopsided (but for us), grace packed, new covenant are:
1. I [God] will put my laws into their mind
2. I will write them in their hearts
3. I will be to them a God
4. They shall be to me a people
5. They shall all know me
6. I will be merciful to their unrighteousness
7. I will not remember their sins and iniquities!

There is no hint of impossible human obedience or responsibility in these seven legally binding clauses! This is substantial difference from the nature of the suzerain/vassal Hittite treaties that formed the basis of the Pentateuch.

The new covenant is an everlasting covenant (Jeremiah 32:40, Ezekiel 37:26, Hebrews 13:20). The nature of this new contract/treaty is such that once we successfully “sign” the contract by placing our faith in Jesus Christ, then we cannot fail! The disposition of the Covenant is truly one-sided as all of the responsibility resides with God – not humans. This means that it cannot be annulled, negated, voided, canceled, stopped, disregarded, undone, or terminated – unless God is not faithful.

But the NSNS view claims that God is unfaithful! If they are right, how can we believe God’s Word? It is a terrible shame that so many buy this God denying belief.

The NSNS view also makes a catastrophic error by insisting that we are an equal party with God. They would exchange God’s faithful responsibility for fickle human faithfulness. The Bible and its covenants declare just the opposite. The new covenant is a one-sided disposition of God toward humanity. Stauffer is an NSNS advocate who makes human responsibility one of the foundational criticisms of OSAS. His fifth criticism shows this misunderstanding of biblical covenants when he writes:
When you accept the gift you come into a covenant relation with God. A covenant implies a twofold responsibility. A covenant is a voluntary agreement, or it is no covenant at all.
As usual, some small truth is contained in this gross error. The small truth is that humans have the responsibility to enter into a voluntary covenantal relationship with God. The gross error is the ignorance of the one-sided disposition of the covenant. In this aspect, it is sort of like rat poison that is 97% wholesome food. Should the rat be concerned about a trifling 3% poison? But here, since there are only two concepts and eternity is the outcome, the poison is much stronger. Stauffer totally ignores that the initiation of the covenant - its formation, its execution, and its free offer - is all of God’s doing.

There is no firmer guarantee of legal security, peace or personal loyalty than the covenant.

A covenant tells how God offers salvation to sinners. As a case in point, God offered His covenant to Abraham without regard to deeds or self merit. Most people do not realize that the Abrahamic covenant was sealed while Abraham was sleeping (Gen 15:12). While Abraham was asleep, God appeared as a smoking furnace and passed through the slain animal parts (Gen 15:17). In the OT, parties bound themselves to the covenant by passing through the slain body parts signifying that death be to the one who failed to keep the stipulations of the covenant. Thus, God bound Himself to the covenant and Abraham was not bound to do anything. Hence the Abrahamic covenant is another one-sided covenant where the responsibilities lie totally and wholly with God.

This one-sided covenant was expanded through Isaac and Jacob as God pledged Himself to them in spite of their consistent sin. God delivered undeserving Israel out of Egypt, because He remembered the covenant that He had made with their forefathers. The Psalmist confidently cried to the Lord for help because of the enduring covenantal relationship.

The Mosaic covenant was given to Israel and Israel alone. As God’s representatives, as recipients of God’s oracles, and as a peculiar people set aside unto God, they had responsibilities to live up to the character of the God Who choose them. The Law must be carefully handled in order to prevent either legalism or antinomianism.

The one-sided covenants culminated in the New Covenant first given to Ezekiel and Jeremiah and later used by the author of Hebrews. As shown above, there is no pronoun devoted to human responsibilities. The covenant is all of God – only to be passively received as a gift by believers.

Eternal Security is grounded in a proper understanding of one-sided covenantal theology.
 

ascund

New Member
Greetings

God’s Promises

God’s promises for the believer’s security are numerous. Consider the following incomplete list:
God promises us that we shall not perish (John 10:28-29).
God has already glorified the believer (Rom 8:29-30).
God will confirm every believer to the end (1 Cor 1:8).
We stand in the power of God (1 Cor 2:5).
God has established us in Christ (2 Cor 1:21-22).
God has given the earnest of His Spirit (2 Cor 5:5-7).
God has made us accepted (Eph 1:6).
God has quickened us together with Christ (Eph 2:5-6).
God began the good work in us and will continue to do it (Phil 1:6).
God has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us into the Kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us from the power of darkness (Col 1:13).
God has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).
The Lord is faithful, Who shall establish you (1 Thes 5:23-24 & 2 Thes 3:3).
The Lord shall deliver me from every evil (2 Tim 4:18).
The Lord will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom (2 Tim 4:18).
God reserves a place for us (1 Pet 1:4-5; Jude 1).
God is able to keep us from falling (Jude 24).
God will present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24).
God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).
God will not let our feet be move [from a position of justification], he does not slumber . . . He shall preserve you [the believer] from all evil: He shall preserve thy soul (Psalm 121:3,7).
We shall not slide [from salvation] (Psalm 26:1).
We can know that we are saved (1 John 5:13).
God is faithful to deliver what He has promised (Heb 10:23).
This list makes pretty easy common-sense reading.

Lloyd
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ascund:
Hey Bob

It appears as if you have forgotten the basic Bible building blocks.

Justification
__ God alone is active.
__ humans ares strictly passive.
Here your pontificating is simply twisting you up. You ALREADY ADMITTED that EVEN at Justification the sinner must ACTIVELY choose Christ!!

Your only "passive" argument was that they did not have to FIRST do some work like "being baptized" to obtain justification.

But they must STILL work the works of God which is to BELIEVE on Christ!!

See?

By ignoring the DETAILS of that earlier exchange you simply leap back into your old error - building error upon error EVEN when you are SHOWN to admit to the ACTIVE part the sinner plays at the point of repentance and conversion!!

How sad that you must allow your bias and false ideas to so cloud your reasoning here Lloyd.

Please try to be a bit more objective and logical.

Do not try exegesis without those basic building blocks.
Here is a clue for you Lloyd "free" of charge. Don't try exegesis WITHOUT THE TEXT of scripture!

You have been ducking and avoiding the most direct and inconvenient points of scripture RATHER than addressing the points.

Try making a counterpoint that RELIES on the text rather than fleeing from it!

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ascund:
Heb 6 - sanctification. It's a warning. Where is the word "lost"? I see the word "impossible" and "better." You fall all over those.

You do a good job demonstrating your confusion.

<obligatory rant deleted>
This would have been another GOOD place for you to try quoting and then exegeting the offensive text of scripture that so displeased you in Hebrews 6.

So far you just give back that vaccuous response that basically "asserts and assumes" but shows NOTHING in the text.

Try embracing the text of scripture and relying on it - instead of fleeing it.

IN Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ascund:

“That which is born of the Spirit is spirit” John 3:6.

This certifies that once one is born of the Spirit, then the results of this birth continue unendingly!
Here you actually go off into one of "your proofs" after having ignored the scriptures I have posted when it comes to their "Salient points" and key texts.

Well - I was wondering if you would ever get to such a logical point -- or were you just going to run from scripture all day long!!

However - here is show the foundational blunder that forms the core of your error on this subject. You seek to STRAIN the text that says "born of the Sprit IS spirit" into saying much more than it says about "OSAS" because "OSAS" needs it!

But in the case of this text our "need" is so desperate and yet restrictive it does not even ALLOW you to quote the ENTIRE VERSE let alone a block of verses AS I HAVE DONE!!

Here is THE ENTIRE verse Lloyd!

6 "" That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
In 1Cor 15 we are told that FLESH and BLOOD CAN NOT inherit the kingdom of God. We are told that "That body that you sow is NOT what you reap".

Yet using the strained eisegesis that you seek to INSERT INTO the text -- as though it were a "RULE" then BOTH the spirit AND the flesh MUST continue AS IS forever!

Christ admits in Matt 10 that EVEN in THIS world "They have power to kill the body".

Yet your goofed up logic is "stuck" in 3:6 having to argue that your flesh TODAY's flesh MUST endure forever if you are a Christian.

Paul argues in 2Cor 5:1-3 that TODAYS' flesh is in a continual state of BREAKDOWN - wearing out and being destroyed.

How then can you offer such flimsly work as IF that would suffice as "exegesis"??

I would be very reluctant to embrace an error that forced me to have to post such work.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Lloyd said --
Strawman #1: Antinomian.
A good example of this deception is the misunderstanding of the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance. Are all Calvinistics antinomian? Antinomian means that one is against the law. Evil would attribute this to Calvinists who claim that salvation is secure because of God’s saving decrees from before the foundation of the world. Hence, evil thinks that all Calvinists hold that works are not important for salvation. At this point evil fails to distinguish the Calvinist view of justification which is completely separate and distinction from sanctification. In theological confusion, it wrongly accuses the Calvinist of lawlessness.
Well you DID say "it was a strawman" so I have to credit you for admitting to your post at the top!

The bogus nature of your strawman is easily exposed by simply observing the fact that ALL calvinists DO NOT say the same thing about perseverance!

The 5 point Calvinist INSISTS that if you do not persevere after being justfied THEN your JUSTIFICATION is retro-deleted! Anulled! declared to never have existed. So no matter how ASSURED you are today - when you FAIL to persevere 10 years from today -- they charge you NEVER WERE SAVED!!

This does not fit what you call "Calvinism" AT ALL!!

The next kind of Calvinism is the 4 pointer that says "NO MATTER HOW MUCH you rebel against the Law of God" after becoming saved - after being justified - you are STILL saved!

They argue that the "BE NOT DECEIVED" warning of 1Cor 6 means NOTHING to them!!

And THESE are the ones you seem to want to defend while ignoring the 5 pointers (or worse - MERGING the two into one amorphous blob!).

Try "Accuracy in details" in your next strawman!

I offer no scripture here - since none was found in your strawman post #1 above.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ascund:
[QB] Greetings

Here is yet another strawman common used instead of Bible.

Strawman #3: The Present Tense Grammatical Error
Scripture is very clear about Eternal Security in the original ....

John 11:25-26 is a typical example of how the NSNS view forces every present tense verb to be translated as “a continuous tense
Ok so your shameless "tactic" when confronted by the texts I QUOTE EXTENSIVELY in my arguments is to run, flee, hide and "pontificate" instead of exegete.

Ok I got that. Seen it. observed it. Check!

BUT NOW your own "strawman" ideas are to use the "shameless tactic" of MAKING UP TEXTS for ME to post that you then shoot down AS IF I actually posted them with the argument you WISH I had made!!???
:rolleyes: :eek:
laugh.gif
applause.gif


You are making this too easy Lloyd!!

Right now you are fully awash in Bible texts debunking your views (in fact in some cases ENTIRE CHAPTERS).

Why not pick up the work that is at your feet and start doing some of it - rather than making up arguments FOR ME and then shooting at them??

Surely you can't be happy with the tactics you have been using so far.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ascund:
Greetings

God’s Promises

God’s promises for the believer’s security are numerous. Consider the following incomplete list:
God promises us that we shall not perish (John 10:28-29).
God has already glorified the believer (Rom 8:29-30).
God will confirm every believer to the end (1 Cor 1:8).
We stand in the power of God (1 Cor 2:5).
God has established us in Christ (2 Cor 1:21-22).
God has given the earnest of His Spirit (2 Cor 5:5-7).
God has made us accepted (Eph 1:6).
God has quickened us together with Christ (Eph 2:5-6).
God began the good work in us and will continue to do it (Phil 1:6).
God has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us into the Kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us from the power of darkness (Col 1:13).
God has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).
The Lord is faithful, Who shall establish you (1 Thes 5:23-24 & 2 Thes 3:3).
The Lord shall deliver me from every evil (2 Tim 4:18).
The Lord will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom (2 Tim 4:18).
God reserves a place for us (1 Pet 1:4-5; Jude 1).
God is able to keep us from falling (Jude 24).
God will present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24).
God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).
God will not let our feet be move [from a position of justification], he does not slumber . . . He shall preserve you [the believer] from all evil: He shall preserve thy soul (Psalm 121:3,7).
We shall not slide [from salvation] (Psalm 26:1).
We can know that we are saved (1 John 5:13).
God is faithful to deliver what He has promised (Heb 10:23).
This list makes pretty easy common-sense reading.

Lloyd
B-b-b-but Lloyd, shouldn't I try to "spin them back" to my side now? Isn't that what I should have to do -- (you know like you felt obligated to do when I BLOCKS of verses IN CONTEXT to the point of the ENTIRE CHAPTER!!??)

Well - believe it or not - I am not going to use the Lloyd-path-to-eisgesis on them. RATHER I am going to point to two BLATANT and obvious facts.

#1. You say in your post that we should simply READ the text asis (no READING INTO THEM as you NEED something for OSAS). I agree (but would also like a little context with each of the snippets).

#2. Having done that we SEE that NONE of them say "Romans 2 is just POTENTIAL - not REAL"!. NONE of them say "The forgiveness revoked parable in Matt 18 does not work here". NONE of them say AS YOU HAVE SAID "failure to persevere" is eternal life!

This point is so clear Lloyd -- how can you keep ducking??!

The summation is that BECAUSE of point 1 and 2 - I DON'T NEED to SPIN them AT ALL.

All I do is... not add your spin to any of those quoted above. :D
wave.gif


In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Lloyd --

It is easy to show the one-sided nature of God’s New Covenant. God gave us four versions of the New Covenant. They are found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Ezekiel 36:26-30, and Hebrews 8:8-13. The Hebrews 8 version is really a quotation of Jeremiah 31. The clauses of this eternal, wonderfully lopsided (but for us), grace packed, new covenant are:
1. I [God] will put my laws into their mind
2. I will write them in their hearts
3. I will be to them a God
4. They shall be to me a people
5. They shall all know me
6. I will be merciful to their unrighteousness
7. I will not remember their sins and iniquities!
The argument is that when God makes a covenant WITH us - WE have no active part in the covenent.

Jer 31
31 "" Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,'' declares the LORD.
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''
Notice the "I WILL" and the "THEY WILL" sections of that covenant? Yet?

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ascund:
Strawman #5: Eternal Security denies the Biblical teaching on apostasy.

The NSNS view claims that salvation is only a present condition not a future realization. Eternal life is only received IF we endure faithfully and is granted only AFTER this life is over.
#1. 5 point Calvinism says that IF one fails to persevere 10 years after being saved - then they NEVER WERE SAVED AT ALL.

But your answer is to fully embrace the perseverence denying doctrine of 4 point Calvinists!!

Lloyd said --

According to the Bible, apostasy for true believers results in a serious loss of conditional heavenly rewards – not a loss of their unconditional eternal destiny.
Such bunk is what Paul argues against in 1Cor 6 with his "BE NOT DECEIEVED" argument.

So "enough" of the pontification and philosophizing of Lloyd-- BACK to the word of God that ADDRESSES the subject of how saints view backsliding and falling away from perseverance!!

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."


2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;

11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
But Lloyd's view of this is "just so many more texts to be ignored"!!

How can that possibly satisfy you??

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lloyd said --

According to the Bible, apostasy for true believers results in a serious loss of conditional heavenly rewards – not a loss of their unconditional eternal destiny.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lloyd asks that we "be deceieved" into thinking that once we are saints THEN even if we fall away -- that IN FACT "the unrighteous will inherit the kingdom[/b] of God? Yes and among them the fornicators, and idolaters, and adulterers, and effeminate, and homosexuals,
10 and thieves, and the covetous, and drunkards, and revilers, and swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God -- for having ONCE been justified there is NO life of sin afterward that will disqualify one for heaven!"


1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
God is not calling us “TO BE” deceived on this point – but rather “NOT to be DECEIVED”.

See?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.
Rom 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a
pure heart fervently:
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
I say again "be not deceived" Lloyd!

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
I know a lot of what I am saying from scripture makes it appear that I don't value what Lloyd has done here -- I suppose that is one way to look at it.

But the truth is that I think he is presenting the best case "There is" for OSAS. It's just that the Bible does not support it - and is why the posts are so lacking when it gets down to the pointed "problems from scripture" that OSAS runs into.

I have never claimed that OSAS believers could not find scripture to "overload" in some wild leap of eisegesis to make them yield to the usages of OSAS. I don't doubt it at all.

But the volumes of scripture I have posted here in large BLOCKS -- certainly weigh in against such bold attempts to bend the text that are "needed" within the confines of OSAS.

The summary is - I think Lloyd is doing a good job of representing the kinds of things that have to be done to defend OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob
 

ascund

New Member
Bob


Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lloyd --

It is easy to show the one-sided nature of God’s New Covenant. God gave us four versions of the New Covenant. They are found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Ezekiel 36:26-30, and Hebrews 8:8-13. The Hebrews 8 version is really a quotation of Jeremiah 31. The clauses of this eternal, wonderfully lopsided (but for us), grace packed, new covenant are:
1. I [God] will put my laws into their mind
2. I will write them in their hearts
3. I will be to them a God
4. They shall be to me a people
5. They shall all know me
6. I will be merciful to their unrighteousness
7. I will not remember their sins and iniquities!
The argument is that when God makes a covenant WITH us - WE have no active part in the covenent.

Jer 31
31 "" Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,'' declares the LORD.
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''
Notice the "I WILL" and the "THEY WILL" sections of that covenant? Yet?

In Christ,

Bob
</font>[/QUOTE]How silly! There is nothing for us to do. The "they will" is part of God's decree on how He will run things. This is an unconditional promise. REad the context.!

Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Greetings

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I know a lot of what I am saying from scripture makes it appear that I don't value what Lloyd has done here -- I suppose that is one way to look at it.

But the truth is that I think he is presenting the best case "There is" for OSAS. It's just that the Bible does not support it - and is why the posts are so lacking when it gets down to the pointed "problems from scripture" that OSAS runs into.

I have never claimed that OSAS believers could not find scripture to "overload" in some wild leap of eisegesis to make them yield to the usages of OSAS. I don't doubt it at all.

But the volumes of scripture I have posted here in large BLOCKS -- certainly weigh in against such bold attempts to bend the text that are "needed" within the confines of OSAS.

The summary is - I think Lloyd is doing a good job of representing the kinds of things that have to be done to defend OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob
Wrong Bob!

Large BLOCKS of quotes TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT have no weight whatsoever.

Your large blocks of quotes demonstrate your large lack of understanding the distinctions between justification and sanctificaiton. God back and read the lexical evidences.

justification is God's domain alone. You wish to make it a human system of self-righteous obedience. You contradict the Bible! Should large volumes of error count as truth?

Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

You deny context in James 2 - again.

In James 2:14-26, Christ-deniers ignore all possible contexts. The overarching context is already saved believers. He urges them to provide works worthy of their standing in Christ. It is an error to make spiritual growth of sanctification a requirement for justification. We expect the baby to talk + walk sometime after birth. We don’t demand maturity as a requirement for birth. Proof of life happens AFTER birth.

The immediate context is Abraham’s justification by faith (James 2:23; Gen. 15:6) twenty years before Mt. Moriah (Gen. 22; James 2:24). Abraham is an example of justification by faith (Rom 4:2-3,13) apart from any obedience and sacrament (4:4-12). The promise is voided by faith + obedience (4:14). In 4:16, justification is by grace through faith. Justification was IMPUTED to Abraham (4:22) by passive faith; EVENT – not process.

James 2:23 with 24 shows the total picture. Justification by PASSIVE faith is the new birth; sanctification by ACTIVE faith is spiritual growth. The righteousness of works before men depends on the righteousness of faith before God. “Faith without works is dead” can only be used as a means for JUSTIFIED BELIEVERS to verify their justification before others. These two must not be confused. Error forces the sanctification part of Abraham’s life to be a requirement for justification oblivious to Abraham’s historic justification.

He mentioned that we have to accept God’s grace by faith. Christ-deniers would never make this statement if he truly knew the distinctions between justification and sanctification. His half truth ignores that biblical Greek portrays this act of faith exclusively in the PASSIVE voice. Faith in Jesus is not an activity of any sort. Jesus used the LOOK and LIVE illustration in John 3 to deny any human activity beyond PASSIVE faith. Failure to do a basic investigation into the voices of justification results in dramatic deficiencies. There are many sanctification verses that can be so abused.


Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

Here is another example of your out of context implication twisted by Christ denying self-righteousness!

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

The biblical definition of "Obey Him" is "believe in Him" (john 6:29)

Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

More examples of your BLOCKS of error!

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.
Christ-deniers ignore the context of Kingdom principles. Context! This is a clear case of violently wrenching the verse out of text and forcing one’s opinions upon God’s Word. Matthew 24 begins with Jesus telling His disciples that the glorious temple would come to an end (24:2). His disciples then asked Him about His coming and the end of the age (24:3). Jesus’ answer is known as the Olivet discourse.

Jesus’ answer comes in fours parts (4–14, 15–28, 29–31, and 32–41). The first part of His answer describes the end of the age. Characteristics of this part include the advent of many false-christs, wars, persecutions, and the world wide proclamation of the gospel. The encouragement to endure to the end is in this section. Following this, Jesus describes the Great Tribulation specifically mentioning the attack on national Israel. Then, beginning with verse 29, Jesus describes the exact moment of His second return. He concludes His discourse by providing the Parable of the Fig Tree. We can know the season of His return but not the exact day and hour. No matter which view of end times one holds this passage is clearly linked with a time of great tribulation – not personal loss of salvation.

The context of the entire chapter teaches that Jesus’ discourse was directed to national Israel. The passage is an OT reference to where God promises to save national Israel from its woes: “for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it” (Jer 30:7). The time of Jacob’s trouble is none other than the Great Tribulation. If this passage had been addressed to already saved Christians, then it would have read, “He that is saved will endure to the end” as it does in John 3:16 and John 10:28.

Only shoddy exegesis ignorant of context would take a passage about the end of times addressed solely and specifically to national Israel and twist it into a present fear of personal loss of salvation. Fear and ignorance are some of Satan’s most powerful tools!

Does the Bible give any clear picture of what happens to a person who cannot endure to the end? Yes! In the Parable of the Sower in Luke 8, Jesus gives a clear picture of a seed that germinates and doesn’t endure to the end. Jesus gives a picture of several types of seeds that are cast at random onto the ground; one such seed that falls among poor soil. Due to the shallow soil, the second seed grows into a young plant but fails to produce fruit. In fact, it withers away under the heat of the day. But notice that the seed produced a new life! In biblical terms, the seed was “born again.” The sad part is that it bears no fruit and receives no reward.

The Bible teaches that the fruit of a given life will determine the rewards of the after life. Since King Jesus will only let believers who professed Him to reign (2 Tim 2:11-13), these shallow-soil fruitless believers who fell away “will miss out on Christ’s approval.” This privilege of reigning with Jesus only comes as we share in His sufferings in this life. “While there is a very real price to be paid for failure in the Christian experience, that price will never involve consignment to the Lake of Fire.”

Context helps us understand that endurance “to the end” should be understood as to the end “of this age” (1:2), not to the end “of one’s life.” The NSNS view is a venomous lie! How is it that so many succumb to it?


Should you have an award for botching context?
Should your BLOCK of confusion count for something?

Please note that these are rhetorical questions!
Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

More examples of your BLOCKS of error!

Heb 2:1-3
For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it/
One’s relationship with Christ is severed because relationship has to do with sanctification – a fellowship issue. But one’s security is not jeopardized because security has to do with justification – a forensic issue. Forensics and fellowship are mutually exclusive terms that must not be confused.

Theologians often tend to polarize their opinions to one of two extremes. The typical exchanges over these warnings fall into two main types. One extreme is that apostasy is not possible for God’s elect. The other extreme is that believers can apostatize and lose their salvation. But there is another group that is not an extreme: free grace OSAS theism.

The free grace OSAS position is that God is faithful to His promises. Forensic justification is a one time event; not an ongoing process. God the Judge declares believing sinners “Not Guilty,” officially pardons them, regenerates them, and closes the judgment book(s) forever. There is no double jeopardy in God’s court. At the same time, God our Father adopts those believing sinners (now called saints) into His family. The Holy Spirit takes up personal residence in our redeemed souls until the day when our bodies are redeemed as well. Filial sanctification is the process of growing into the spiritual maturity. Any sin or good deed is possible here. We encourage the deeds done from love and faith, we oppose but acknowledge all sin. Sin brings a loss of rewards while faithfulness brings crowns, responsibilities and blessings.

It is possible for believers to apostatize. They will lose heavenly rewards but not their eternal destiny.
__Christ made total payment for sins on the Cross!
__What sin could a person commit that hasn’t already been paid?
__God declared a verdict of “Not Guilty” to all who believe.
__What sin could be done that would reverse this declaration?
__God has purchased all believers unto Himself.
__Can the purchased possession sell itself?

The NT doctrine of eschatological accountability teaches that each believer must ultimately give an answer to Christ for his actions (Matt 18:21–35; 25:14–30; Mark 4:21–5; Rom 14:10–2; 1 Cor 3:10–5; 9:24–7; 2 Cor 5:10). This is the doctrine of rewards. Because of a secure positional forensic salvation, Paul could rightly declare that nothing could separate him from God (Rom 8:39). Both of these harmonize when we realize that justification and sanctification are mutually exclusive and disjoint. The results of sanctification do not affect forensic salvation. Constant faithfulness to Christ determines rewards; faithlessness results in losing rewards (1 Cor 9:24–7). There is no denial of a certain future judgment (Heb 10:27,30). However, for believers it will be a judgment of rewards; not a judgment of destiny.

Should you have an award for botching context?
Should your BLOCK of confusion count for something?

Please note that these are rhetorical questions!
Lloyd
 
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