Every knee shall bow and tongue confess

[convicted1]

Do you believe this means that one day every single person will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord, or is this speaking of only His elect?

If it means every individual, how do the totally depraved, natural, unregenerate men destined to an eternity in hell make such a confession without first being made able to understand and believe through the effectual work of God? In other words, if men can't bow and confess Jesus as Lord without first being effectually called (or regenerated) then how does every individual do this?

I believe that this is in reference to the resurrection, Bro. Skan. That in that morning, they will have to confess that Jesus is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. They refused to confess Him here, but will have to in Judgement. It's not that they couldn't do this, but rather, wouldn't.

 

[glfredrick]

So, you are presuming that their tongues will be lying when they confess, "Jesus is Lord?" Right? How do you know that?

Were you a lawyer in another life? You have a penchant for asking utterly insane questions that only serve to box in the person to whom you are currently directing your attention.

How about rather, that the passage describes the end of the age, and ALL (is that not the plain description in the verse?) will bow and call Christ, Lord. They will be forced to do so against their will, but it will not be an salvific expression, for it is too late. The age is wrapped up. It is finished. The verse is not good news for those holding a radical free will position. It seems that God WILL drag people kicking and screaming afterall...

 

[Skandelon]

Were you a lawyer in another life? You have a penchant for asking utterly insane questions

I've linked two articles written by prominent Calvinistic scholars who have written long articles (and even chapters in books) on explaining the answer to the question I have posed to you. Drawing a distinction in the "desire" and "active decree" of God is not insane, Fredrick; it is a basic premise of this theological discussion. That is a fact, not just my opinion. If you can't, or won't, recognize that then you are the one missing out, but to accuse me of asking "utterly insane" questions because I draw this simple distinction is just embarrassing for you in light of these facts. Please reconsider and take the time needed to study this issue before you continue.

 

[Skandelon]

Now, with regard to the question of this OP...

How about rather, that the passage describes the end of the age, and ALL (is that not the plain description in the verse?) will bow and call Christ, Lord. They will be forced to do so against their will, but it will not be an salvific expression, for it is too late. The age is wrapped up. It is finished. The verse is not good news for those holding a radical free will position. It seems that God WILL drag people kicking and screaming afterall...

Don't most Calvinists believe that God doesn't force people to go against their will, but instead that he changes their will effectually by giving them a new nature? Are these people bowing and confessing as a result of being giving a new nature or are they doing it against their wills?

Could it be that even though it is too late for salvation, that the revelation of Christ at judgement would convince everyman to finally bow and confess? How is that not good for those holding to a free will theology?

 

[percho]

But how do you know that when it simply says every knee will bow and tongue confess. It doesn't qualify it saying "some will meant it and others won't." How can you be sure of your interpretation?

This thread and the one by Psalms 109:31 about idols are highly related. Go and read Isaiah 43-45 God through Christ through the the two houses of Israel is doing something that includes all of mankind. This is where the passage in Phil. 2 comes from. Israel is called the firstborn of God. Jesus is called the firstborn from the dead. Does not to put first in front of a word imply there will be other as so?

God by election since the foundation of the world id doing what God does.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. This verse follows something relative to above.
2 Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
God says he has made this known to ya'll.
Eph. 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

What has he made known?

V:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

Work out own conclusion.

 

[Skandelon]

Couldn't the difference in those who bow and confess prior to the day of judgement and those who wait until after is FAITH?

The saved bow and confess in faith, while those at judgement, bow and confess after seeing Him face to face? But, "without faith it is impossible to please God." Once again, we see they perish "because of their unbelief."

 

[JesusFan]

But how do you know that when it simply says every knee will bow and tongue confess. It doesn't qualify it saying "some will meant it and others won't." How can you be sure of your interpretation?

because IF they were all saying it in a "saving faith" way, none of them would go to hell!

 

[DHK]

because IF they were all saying it in a "saving faith" way, none of them would go to hell!

But it doesn't say that. It says that they will confess him as Lord. But that doesn't mean that they are saved. It means that they must be genuine about their confession because they know the truth now. It doesn't mean that their saved. They are confronted by an Almighty God, their Creator, as well as their final sentencing--their eternal doom at the same time.

 

[JesusFan]

But it doesn't say that. It says that they will confess him as Lord. But that doesn't mean that they are saved. It means that they must be genuine about their confession because they know the truth now. It doesn't mean that their saved. They are confronted by an Almighty God, their Creator, as well as their final sentencing--their eternal doom at the same time.

True, its just to answer a prior question about this....

They will say this as a fact, but not said with conviction that Jesus is Lord in salvation sense/basis, but as in ackowledge who He is is in reality basis!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I believe that this is in reference to the resurrection, Bro. Skan. That in that morning, they will have to confess that Jesus is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. They refused to confess Him here, but will have to in Judgement. .

That's quite right. When Christ returns, it will be quite overwhelming. Even those who hated and despised Him or refused to believe in Him will perforce acknowledge Him as Lord (cf. Matt 26:44), but then it will be too late for them.

Steve

 

[DHK]

THE GREAT JUDGMENT MORNING​

by Bert*ram H. Shad*duck

​

I dreamed that the great judgment morning​

Had dawned, and the trumpet had blown;​

I dreamed that the nations had gathered​

To judgment before the white throne;​

From the throne came a bright shining angel,​

And he stood on the land and the sea,​

And he swore with his hand raised to Heaven,​

That time was no longer to be.

​

Refrain

​

And O, what a weeping and wailing,​

As the lost were told of their fate;​

They cried for the rocks and the mountains,​

They prayed, but their prayer was too late.​

The rich man was there, but his money​

Had melted and vanished away;​

A pauper he stood in the judgment,​

His debts were too heavy to pay;​

The great man was there, but his greatness,​

When death came, was left far behind!​

The angel that opened the records,​

Not a trace of his greatness could find.

​

Refrain

​

The widow was there with the orphans,​

God heard and remembered their cries;​

No sorrow in Heaven forever,​

God wiped all the tears from their eyes;​

The gambler was there and the drunkard,​

And the man that had sold them the drink,​

With the people who gave him the license,​

Together in hell they did sink.

​

Refrain

​

The moral man came to the judgment,​

But self righteous rags would not do;​

The men who had crucified Jesus​

Had passed off as moral men, too;​

The soul that had put off salvation,​

Not tonight; Ill get saved by and by,​

No time now to think of religion!​

At last they had found time to die.

​

Refrain

​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr6ST-At6lE​

 

[percho]

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Cor. 10:1-5

Just as in chapter 12 Paul doesn't want them to be ignorant. Who were these Christians whose fathers are being spoken of. In the wilderness was not the only time they were overthrown. They never pleased God and they turned to idols. Just as the Lamb was slain prior to the creation of Adam, this also did not surprise God. God chose them as his firstborn of the all the families of the earth to be his witnesses.

Isa. 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].
Verses 9-17 They make a graven image, form a god, how they shamefully make it from wood, burns it, cooks with it, warms himself, worships it, the works of his hands.

V-20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, [Is there] not a lie in my right hand?
The dumb idols of 1 Cor. 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led

V 21-23 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done [it]: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

V 1-7 shows it is by his spirit they will know and be known.

In chapter 46 is where every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess because these that were ignorant God has redeemed in their ignorance.
Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; [and] their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Read Hosea.

 

[DHK]

Read Hosea.

What do OT saints and others in the OT have to do with those in the NT that have openly rejected Christ? Those who have been exposed to the gospel and have rejected Christ, possibly over and over again, will one day bow before him and call him Lord.

 

[Tom Butler]

In the OP it states that every knee shall bow; every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Personally I believe that this will take place at the Great White Throne Judgment before the final sentencing of all the unsaved. They will have no other choice but to declare that Christ is Lord. Then they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

DHK, I think your view makes the most sense.

I'm reminded of the exchange when some asked Jesus in Matthew 24, "Lord, when did we see you hungry...."

And in Matthew 7

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

Jesus answers, "I never knew you..."

At the judgment, they will acknowledge Jesus as Lord, but only in the context of trying to justify themselves.

 

[Allan]

True, its just to answer a prior question about this....

They will say this as a fact, but not said with conviction that Jesus is Lord in salvation sense/basis, but as in ackowledge who He is is in reality basis!

Oh, I believe there will be great conviction in their hearts at that moment.
They will mean every word and declare it with great conviction. The problem has nothing to do with what they say 'then', but what they did with the truth prior 'to' their judgment.

It is no different than a young teenager brought before the courts on felony charges of say.. car theft. They knew it was wrong, didn't think much about it and/or didn't really care at the time. Yet once they were brought before the judge - they will readily confess, proclaim they were wrong, honor the judge and even praise him in the pleas.. Yet what brought them there is issue not what they do once they stand 'in' judgment.

At that time, when all is laid bare and fully revealed, no one will doubt, no one will declare otherwise and will not only be convinced of the truth, but their conviction of it will cause them to cry our 'Lord', for the sake of mercy. Yet scripture states that judgment is without mercy. It is appointed unto man, once to die and then the Judgment.

 

[percho]

Oh, I believe there will be great conviction in their hearts at that moment.
They will mean every word and declare it with great conviction. The problem has nothing to do with what they say 'then', but what they did with the truth prior 'to' their judgment.

It is no different than a young teenager brought before the courts on felony charges of say.. car theft. They knew it was wrong, didn't think much about it and/or didn't really care at the time. Yet once they were brought before the judge - they will readily confess, proclaim they were wrong, honor the judge and even praise him in the pleas.. Yet what brought them there is issue not what they do once they stand 'in' judgment.

At that time, when all is laid bare and fully revealed, no one will doubt, no one will declare otherwise and will not only be convinced of the truth, but their conviction of it will cause them to cry our 'Lord', for the sake of mercy. Yet scripture states that judgment is without mercy. It is appointed unto man, once to die and then the Judgment.

called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Does the verse from Romans trump the one from Rev. so that even being deceived they have enough light to be born again even if they never heard the name of Jesus? They just needed to exercise their faith?

 

[percho]

What do OT saints and others in the OT have to do with those in the NT that have openly rejected Christ? Those who have been exposed to the gospel and have rejected Christ, possibly over and over again, will one day bow before him and call him Lord.

I assume you checked out all that scripture before posting.

Who were these Christians whose fathers are being spoken of? Are they possibly some of these? Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Let's say today God goes to a Gentile city in say China of six million souls.
Will he offer all six million or will he take out from them one here, two or three over there for his name. Does God offer all six million salvation today.

 

[DHK]

I assume you checked out all that scripture before posting.

Who were these Christians whose fathers are being spoken of? Are they possibly some of these? Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Let's say today God goes to a Gentile city in say China of six million souls.
Will he offer all six million or will he take out from them one here, two or three over there for his name. Does God offer all six million salvation today.

First, if you are wanting the Calvinist point of view you are asking the wrong person.

Second, what do you mean when you say "God goes into a Gentile city in China."
--God is omnipresent. He is everywhere. In Mat.28:19,20 he gave his disciples (which now includes us) the Great Commission, which commands us to go into China, Asia, Africa, Europe, the Middle East, and in every part of the world to reach them with the gospel. God has no back up plans. He doesn't send angels. He doesn't go Himself. He sends us, believers in Christ. If we don't go, then their blood will be on our hands. He expects us to reach the lost of our generation. We need to do what we can to get the gospel out to the world.

Third, there is no need to talk about the elect. "The elect" used in Scripture, always refers to the saved, never the unsaved. Since we don't know who is going to be saved and who is going to reject Christ it is our duty to preach the gospel to all. All need the opportunity to hear the gospel.
--It was A.B. Simpson who said: "Why should any one hear the gospel twice when most of the world has never heard it once."

 

[Allan]

called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:

Satan only blinds those who have 'already' refused.
Secondly it does not state he deceives the 'whole world'. It states he is the god of this world (or more accurately - age), blinding the unbelieving.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Does the verse from Romans trump the one from Rev. so that even being deceived they have enough light to be born again even if they never heard the name of Jesus? They just needed to exercise their faith?

Not even close. Neither trumps the other but both keep conformity of scripture. Keep the context of the passages AND the consistency of scripture.

First GOD states He is the one who reveals Himself to ALL mankind via general light (nature and the conscience). That general light is basic elements of the gospel, though not the gospel itself and as such can not save. These basic elements are Sin, Righteousness, and the Judgment to come.

Therefore if God says He reveals these basic spiritual truths to all man and that all men understand them, then can we say that some have not received or come to know even this basic light? Answer - No. However in this we find that after God has revealed these spiritual truths to men, and they reject them - God gives them over to their sin/lies.

So when God gives them over, what happens? Whether it be has happened with limited light or the full light of the gospel message.. we see what happens over in 2 Thes 2:10-12. This is speaking of those who will be followers of the anit-Christ or if you prefer - God rejecters who follow the anti-christ system. But in either case.. once they reject the truth that 'could' save them.. and it was "For THAT cause" God will send a strong delusion to believe the lie (what Rom 1 states they traded the truth for).. For the purpose that they might all be damned who did not believe the truth.

Knowing that first God reveals to the point that man DOES understand, and that if man rejects it God will give them over to the lie they choose over the truth.. and knowing that God give them over, we also know that those whom He has given over who rejected the truth... GOD will send forth a strong delusion to believe that lie.

Know what is that strong delusion.. that which will keep the truth hidden from them from that time onward. We know that it from that time onward because the very reason, according to scripture, that God sends forth the strong delusion is so they might all be "condemned who did not believe the truth". That is where we see Satan as the god of this world or age is seen coming into play as he keeps them from ever knowing the truth of gospel and in effect keeping them condemned because they believed not the truth.

Note that Paul speaks of a contrast between those who believe and do not, and thus the saved and lost. The context refers to knowing the truth and receiving it unto salvation, or being lost, blinded to saving power of the gospel message through unbelief.

 

[Luke2427]

Satan only blinds those who have 'already' refused.
Secondly it does not state he deceives the 'whole world'. It states he is the god of this world (or more accurately - age), blinding the unbelieving.

No, it does not. Scripture calls him the god of this world. Then Scripture tells us he has blinded the minds of them that do not believe.

But the fact remains that Scripture says he is the god of this world.

Now according to you guys who have no identifiable theology "world" means every single person in some places.

Is this not one of them?

Because it appears your rule is- "world" means every single person when I want it to and it doesn't when I don't.