Evolution in any form in the Bible?

[Jim1999]

Remember too that Adam did not always refer to the man Adam..It also referred to mankind in the first few chapters of Genesis.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[annsni]

This is still predicated on the idea that Adam's days were only numbered when death was on his horizon though... that the spiritual death of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge marked the beginning of his end.

That is saying that Scripture is wrong. ALL THE DAYS THAT ADAM LIVED WERE 930 YEARS. That is what Scripture says. You are saying that it's wrong.

Now, why do I come to these conclusions? Because the distance of the stars, and the speed of light, also tend to date the world much older than ten thousand years. Because I do not believe that God is deceptive, nor do I believe He wants to hide Himself from us, so I don't think He would make the universe appear older than it actually is. You could debate His motivation for making the earth and universe look older than it is, but the act of doing so would, by definition be deceptive.

I don't believe He is one bit deceptive, so the idea of the "extended stay in Eden" merely squares that science with what we must hold to be true... The inerrant Word of The Lord, written in the book of Genesis.

You see? I'm not changing the Word to fit science, but rather reading The Word in such a way that assumes science is already compatible with It. God created science too, after all.

No - you are saying that you believe science rather than God's clear Word. You can't interpret "ALL THE DAYS THAT ADAM LIVED WERE 930" any other way unless you say that God is lying. Seriously.

 

[blackbird]

Remember too that Adam did not always refer to the man Adam..It also referred to mankind in the first few chapters of Genesis.

Cheers,

Jim

Where have you noticed this, Jim??

Every study I've done spoke specifically of Adam as being an individual man with his wife, Eve--as individual woman

It does speak of what is called the "Generations of Adam" but never where it refers to Adam as to mankind

Can you elaberate???

 

[Creyn]

No - you are saying that you believe science rather than God's clear Word. You can't interpret "ALL THE DAYS THAT ADAM LIVED WERE 930" any other way unless you say that God is lying. Seriously.

No, not true. I just believe that the count did not begin until after the fall.

Look, after you go to heaven, will you still number your years? Adam and Eve, were it not for the Fall, could have lived in Eden for all eternity. What meaning was there in having a count of those years? The only reason to count is when you have a definitive end.

As I said, God's Word is inerrant, and science exists by His hand. Why would they be incompatible? I submit they are not.

 

[annsni]

No, not true. I just believe that the count did not begin until after the fall.

Look, after you go to heaven, will you still number your years? Adam and Eve, were it not for the Fall, could have lived in Eden for all eternity. What meaning was there in having a count of those years? The only reason to count is when you have a definitive end.

As I said, God's Word is inerrant, and science exists by His hand. Why would they be incompatible? I submit they are not.

Can you show me from Scripture any support for your theory? I can show you that days existed before the fall - as well as years. (Genesis 1:14) I can show you where God says "ALL the days that Adam lived" - not just some of them but all.

Let's look at Genesis 5:

1) This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2) Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created

So, God created both Adam and Eve on the same day.

3) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

After Adam lived a 130 years - Not 130 years after the fall. Was Adam alive before the fall? If he was, then the 130 years includes the time before the fall.

4) And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

"the days of Adam" were 800 years - it was 800 years from the time he had Seth to the end. This is clear the time limits - start at Seth, end at the end.

5) And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Note it now it concludes Adam's life - from beginning of his life to the end. That was 930 years.

There is not one support for the view that the 930 years is after the fall since God says that all the days of Adam were 930. If you can show me even a slight hint of evidence of your theory, then I'd consider it but you cannot show me from Scripture. Since Scripture is where we get our truth from - it is inerrant and God breathed - and there is no support at all for a particular theory but in fact has support for the opposite theory, then the particular theory is untrue.

So my challenge to you is to forget supposition - prove it from Scripture.

 

[Jim1999]

To save me reciting a bunch of biblical verses, let me quote from a Bible Dictionary:

"As wel as being a proper name, "adam" is also used some 500 times to mean "mankind"' (the meaning being usually distinguished in Hebrew.)

New Concise Bible Dictionary, editors include such scholars as : J.I. Packer, F.F. Bruce. Donald Guthrie, J.D. Douglas and Jon Stott..to name some) Published by IVP.

I thought the adamic thing was common knowledge in all decent seminaries. Tell me when adam was actually named in Genesis? It wasnt chapter one.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jim1999]

Remember also that Adam had a lot of things to get done before Eve came along. Gen 2: 19,20 (I think) God brought all the created creatures to Adam so he could name them."and brought them to Adam to see what Adam would call them, and whatsoever Adam called them, it was so..." I am quoting froom memory so I may have missed a word or two.....But you get the idea.....

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

....Now, why do I come to these conclusions? Because the distance of the stars, and the speed of light, also tend to date the world much older than ten thousand years. Because I do not believe that God is deceptive, nor do I believe He wants to hide Himself from us, so I don't think He would make the universe appear older than it actually is. You could debate His motivation for making the earth and universe look older than it is, but the act of doing so would, by definition be deceptive.

I don't believe He is one bit deceptive, so the idea of the "extended stay in Eden" merely squares that science with what we must hold to be true... The inerrant Word of The Lord, written in the book of Genesis.

But then this would have God being deceptive saying in clear, unambiguous language that he created the world in 6 days, which are clearly shown to be literal days in Genesis. And it is mentioned again in Exodus. The people first hearing this surely believed it was six literal days and God knew that. He could have said he created the world over a long period of time, but He didn't say that.

 

[Jim1999]

Quote: Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam...

Want to read that verse again,,,,,,,,,,called THEIR name Adam..you mean Adam and Eve were both called Adam?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

No, not true. I just believe that the count did not begin until after the fall.

Look, after you go to heaven, will you still number your years? Adam and Eve, were it not for the Fall, could have lived in Eden for all eternity. What meaning was there in having a count of those years? The only reason to count is when you have a definitive end.

As I said, God's Word is inerrant, and science exists by His hand. Why would they be incompatible? I submit they are not.

I posted this before but you may have missed it. When God created the world, he created time as well. Adam and Eve were created in time. Just because there was no death before the fall does not mean they were not in time. They were in time.

Then God said, "Let there be (T)lights in the (U)expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for (V)signs and for (W)seasons and for days and years; Gen. 1.14

.

 

[Marcia]

Quote: Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam...

Want to read that verse again,,,,,,,,,,called THEIR name Adam..you mean Adam and Eve were both called Adam?

Cheers,

Jim

This is from Gen. 5 which is a summary of what God did (NASB):
1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him (A)in the likeness of God.
2He created them (B)male and female, and He (C)blessed them and named them [a]Man in the day when they were created.

The NET Bible uses "humankind" instead of "Man" as here, and a note that it is the word translated as "adam."

This does not mean that God did not create just one man and one woman, because clearly in Gen. 1 and 2, that's what it is talking about. Gen. 5 merely sums it up. Yes, woman was also "humankind." But then there is also Adam, the first male. The same word can be used 2 different ways.

The last verse of Gen. 2, which is a retelling of Gen. 1 in a different format clearly indicates one man and one woman:

And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

 

[OldRegular]

True... a good and valid point, with one exception: God told Adam to be fruitful and multiply BEFORE he had even created Eve, and there's nothing in Genesis between putting "the man in the garden to work it and take care of it" in 2:15, and 2:18 when he finally creates Eve, to say how long that time actually was.

You either don't understand Scripture or are deliberately being contentious by your asinine posts. My personal opinion is that you are being contentious. Reading your posts I am reminded Jude 1:4.

Scripture states clearly that Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day:

Genesis 1:26-28
26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

[Creyn]

But then this would have God being deceptive saying in clear, unambiguous language that he created the world in 6 days, which are clearly shown to be literal days in Genesis. And it is mentioned again in Exodus. The people first hearing this surely believed it was six literal days and God knew that. He could have said he created the world over a long period of time, but He didn't say that.

Because my goal in this discussion has NEVER been a defense of evolution, the length of time God took created the Earth and Universe is, at this time, secondary to my point... The question I've been trying to address is how old it all is. My contention is that the age of the world as we can determine from the Bible and the age as determined by modern science (astrophysics, astronomy, geology, etc) are the same.

The world surely could have been created in six days, 4.5 Billion years ago.

Again, the inerrant Word of God is NOT incompatible with science, which He also created.

 

[Creyn]

I posted this before but you may have missed it. When God created the world, he created time as well. Adam and Eve were created in time. Just because there was no death before the fall does not mean they were not in time. They were in time.

I realize that they lived natural, 24-hr days, weeks, months and years, but my point was that those days were, and were supposed to be innumerable. They were supposed to live in harmony with God in Eden for eternity, the way that we will when we go to heaven, so what point was there in numbering them?

When eternal life was taken because they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and not of the fruit of the tree of life, then death would, and eventually did, come to them, and the question of Adam's age became relevant.

I know its not in scripture that the count began after the fall, but neither is it definitively spelled out that it couldn't have.

I just can't say it enough... God created the universe and He gave us the rulers by which to measure its age. I don't think He would give us the means to gain the knowledge of the details of His creation, only to turn those means upside down.

God's inerrant Word and the science He created are compatible.

 

[Creyn]

You either don't understand Scripture or are deliberately being contentious by your asinine posts. [/i]

Leave it to OldRegular to get personal.

I am neither being asinine OR contentious, I'm merely presenting a possible reading of scripture that allows for the science God created to exist free of conflict with His inerrant Word.

God made Adam and placed him in the garden to work and care for it... Genesis 2:15. Sometime later (Genesis 2:18 on) He said, "It is not good for man to be alone," and He caused Adam to enter a deep sleep, took one of his ribs, and made Eve from it.

While Genesis 1:27 says God made man and woman in His own image, which He certainly did, it does NOT say they were created at the same time, and the ACTUAL sequence for Eve's appearance is there, in chapter 2 like I just showed.

How long after the creation of Adam did God make Eve?

[EDIT] wow. I just read Jude 1:4 which I apparently remind you of. You're kind of a jerk, aren't you? I am NOT being "immoral" by reading the Bible in a way that assumes the details of God's creation as observable by the science HE created are perfectly in harmony. And I think YOU are just afraid that your God can't take being held up to the scrutiny of science. Well MINE CAN. God is THE CREATOR of it ALL. Everything! From Adam and Eve to astrophysics, and there's NO reason... NONE... to think otherwise.

 

[Marcia]

I realize that they lived natural, 24-hr days, weeks, months and years, but my point was that those days were, and were supposed to be innumerable. They were supposed to live in harmony with God in Eden for eternity, the way that we will when we go to heaven, so what point was there in numbering them?

Living in Eden and living in eternity with God after death are not the same thing. Being redeemed through Christ is even better than what Adam and Eve had. Living in Eden does not mean they were outside time and did not go through days and years. They did and nothing indicates otherwise. As Ann posted, the bible tells us how long they lived. There is no reason to think this started at the Fall. Time already existed the moment the world was created.

 

[Creyn]

Living in Eden and living in eternity with God after death are not the same thing. Being redeemed through Christ is even better than what Adam and Eve had. Living in Eden does not mean they were outside time and did not go through days and years. They did and nothing indicates otherwise. As Ann posted, the bible tells us how long they lived. There is no reason to think this started at the Fall. Time already existed the moment the world was created.

Well then, Marcia... since you've at least not been unkind... to YOU I'll concede. I find it VERY hard to believe that many MANY good Christian men and women scientists who find joy in examining His creation and, through such examination have determined the age of it all to be very, very old... I find it hard to believe those people are deceiving themselves by the very instruments God gave them to make such observations. Or, worse yet, those people are intentionally falsifying those findings in order to lead their brothers and sisters in Christ astray. I really find that tough to swallow.

So, here is a way one might read scripture that shows it is ALL true, but never mind. As I said in one of my earliest posts: Of the young-earthers I know, and the discussions we have, it is ALWAYS the old-earth Christian that must be the more gracious and demure in their belief. Apparently this forum is no different, and I give up.

 

[Marcia]

Well then, Marcia... since you've at least not been unkind... to YOU I'll concede. .

Well, thanks for that. :wavey:

I find it VERY hard to believe that many MANY good Christian men and women scientists who find joy in examining His creation and, through such examination have determined the age of it all to be very, very old... I find it hard to believe those people are deceiving themselves by the very instruments God gave them to make such observations.

Well, I do not find it hard to believe at all. Christians can be deceived in this area. I do not think science has a valid way to date as far back as they claim. They first decide how far back it might be and then interpret the data according to that. It is as much a belief as any other belief is. They cannot actually date the earth millions of years old.

 

[annsni]

Leave it to OldRegular to get personal.

I am neither being asinine OR contentious, I'm merely presenting a possible reading of scripture that allows for the science God created to exist free of conflict with His inerrant Word.

God made Adam and placed him in the garden to work and care for it... Genesis 2:15. Sometime later (Genesis 2:18 on) He said, "It is not good for man to be alone," and He caused Adam to enter a deep sleep, took one of his ribs, and made Eve from it.

While Genesis 1:27 says God made man and woman in His own image, which He certainly did, it does NOT say they were created at the same time, and the ACTUAL sequence for Eve's appearance is there, in chapter 2 like I just showed.

How long after the creation of Adam did God make Eve?

[EDIT] wow. I just read Jude 1:4 which I apparently remind you of. You're kind of a jerk, aren't you? I am NOT being "immoral" by reading the Bible in a way that assumes the details of God's creation as observable by the science HE created are perfectly in harmony. And I think YOU are just afraid that your God can't take being held up to the scrutiny of science. Well MINE CAN. God is THE CREATOR of it ALL. Everything! From Adam and Eve to astrophysics, and there's NO reason... NONE... to think otherwise.

Ummm - It does say that Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day so they WERE created - not at the same time - but within the same 24 hour period:

26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

You are really trying to make something up where there is no evidence - but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Your argument seems to be with the Word of God.

 

[OldRegular]

God is THE CREATOR of it ALL. Everything! From Adam and Eve to astrophysics, and there's NO reason... NONE... to think otherwise.

Yes but he didn't have to shuffle His feet for several billion years to do it.