Evolutionism, what magnitude of error?

[UTEOTW]

So, on what basis were the animals sorted? Size? Density? Shape? What?

I have a link for you.

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/ponyexpress/PONY4_2/PE42.HTM#dig

This is a description of a fossil dig for horses in Florida. Now the horses they were digging up were Parahippus leonensis and Archaeohippus blackbergi and Anchitherium clarenci. In addition, the following is a partial listing of what else they found.

Anura, miscellaneous frogs and toads
Bufo sp., frog
Geochelone tedwhitei, extinct tortoise
Emydidae and Pseudemys, extinct turtles
Alligator olseni, alligator
Rodentia, miscellaneous rodents (squirrels, etc.)
Carnivora, miscellaneous kinds of carnivores
Amphicyon longiramus, giant bear-dog
Cynodesmus iamonensis, dog
Tomarctus canavus, dog
Mustelidae, various weasels and their relatives
Ursidae, true bears
Anchitherium clarenci, large, three-toed browsing horse
Archaeohippus blackbergi, three-toed dwarf horse
Parahippus leonensis, medium-sized, three-toed mixed feeder horse
Rhinocerotidae, various rhinos
Floridaceras whitei, extinct Florida rhino
Blastomeryx floridanus, small deer-like mammal
Machaeromeryx gilchristensis, small deer-like mammal
Nothokemas, larger even-toed ruminant ungulate

So, maybe you can tell us just what sorting basis would put horses, frogs, toads, tortoises, turtles, squirrels, dogs, bears, weasels, rhinos, and deer all in the same layer?

Just what did all these have in common that led to them being singles out to be put together?

The truth is that there is no answer. You cannot give a reasonable scenario in which just these would be sorted out to this layer and all other creatures excluded. Why only these three species of horse and no others? Why not all the other ungulates? What do frogs and horses have in common? Weasels and turtles?

There are already Flood threads going. You think you can answer some of the questions?

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/66/29.html - You can come tell us about meanders and angular unconformities from the flood.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/66/18.html? - You can come tell us how to get the evidence for snowball earth from a flood.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by KenH:
I would advise you to take some time and Google the subject along the lines of "dinosaurs and humans existed together". The truth will ultimately defeat evolutionist mythology. In the meantime, I urge everyone not to buy into its lies.

Upon doing so, the only item of significance that came up was the Paluxy "man tracks", which have long since been refuted. I could find nothing else that was verifiable. Feel free, however, to post a more specific reply to my question if you like, as I welcome the discussion.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Answer - The combination of turbidity current action and the sorting action of the flood in animal survival paradigms.

Unfortunately, this does not explain it. Flood sorting action would result in randomness of fossil dispersion. Fossils that creationists claim were pre-flood are found in reasonable proximity. Also, a flood sorting action would not explain the dating issue. If the Flood effected the dates of fossils, then pre-flood human remains would be affected in the same manner as pre-flood nonhuman remains, and would date similarly. They do not.

Again, no one should take this as a defense of evolution. I'm simply asking for a reasonable explanation for why dinosaur bones are not found to be in the same era as modern humans?

 

[BobRyan]

The flood sorting paradigm has to do not only with water and body density it also has to do with the models for survival that the various animals use.


The turbidity currents have everything to do with layering of sediments.

And the evolutionist bravely "telling stories" about how a world wide flood "can not do such and such" is "not science" -- it is merely story-time for evolutionists.

In any case - that is not the subject of the thread.

For this thread the question is that if we consider that evolutionism is a doctrine based in nothing more than junk-science - then mixing it with Christian doctrine results in a "certain level of error". The question for this thread is "What level"?

So far evolutionist posts here have been unnable to master the simple concept of the OP and answer the question.

Why do you suppose that is? Are evolutionists not "capable" of ojbective thought?

Are they so "stuck" trying to do damage control with the blunders of evolutionism, that they can not step outside for a moment and objectively "evaluate" the worst case to SEE what level it represents?

Surely they have enough self-respect to "attempt" to master this simple idea.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by UTEOTW:

So, maybe you can tell us just what sorting basis would put horses, frogs, toads, tortoises, turtles, squirrels, dogs, bears, weasels, rhinos, and deer all in the same layer?

Just what did all these have in common that led to them being singles out to be put together?

The truth is that there is no answer.

Wrong. (as usual). The answer is that they all are subject to the same catastrophic event. And event that NOT ONLY brings rain from above but ALSO breaks up the fountains of the deep - geologic changes - upheaval happening in the same catastrophy.

This is just another case where "simple stories of evolutionists" hardly ever "fit the facts".

But back to the "actual topic" of this thread.

What level of doctinal error would evolutionism be? Is it "Worse" than being a disciple of Christ before the resurrection?

I think so.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[UTEOTW]

Oh, Bob, you make my case even better than I can. Your silence on how to get that particular mix of species all in the same layer speaks volumes.

Just how do frogs get mixed in over that last 200 millions years or so of strata while this particular mix end up with those fossil horses? Shouldn't all frogs sort in a similar way? Why are they not found in one layer or maybe just a few. Why did they all sort so differently?

Turtle fossils extend back almost 200 million years themselves. Why do turtles sort out over such a wide variety of layers? Shouldn't turtles all sort in a sikilar manner? Why only this narrow slice of turtle species is found with these horse species? What makes different turtles sort so differently? What makes these turtles sort the same as these horses?

It is because there has not been any hydraulic sorting of species. It is not even possible to sort them in the manner you assert but cannot describe. The fossils sort themselves in a manner consistent with their evolutionary history. The flood would have just randomly mixed everything up. I have in the past given you a reference to how well the pattern of evolution from cladistics matches the pattern of fossils found temporally in the ground.

Index fossil may be your worst nightmare when it comes to your scenraio, here. Narrow slices of widely differing species found in the same layers at many different locations.

BTW, did the flood also manage to sort rocks according to the ratios of radioactive isotopes? Because the rocks we find sure are sorted in that manner! What was the mechanism for that?!?

 

[Bro. James]

Discounting the power of The Flood--

1. There were three sources of hydraulics. Each had a different effect--all contributed to a worldwide catastrophe. See Gen. 7:11-12.

2. Imagine, the phyics and chemistry being played out in real time--plate techtonics while you watch--category 5 hurricanes everywhere. The earth being tilted 23+ degrees.

3. It is almost enough to change one's geologic timetable--and such would certainly change the anthropology and paleontology of the alluvium.

4. It also made the oil fields.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[UTEOTW]

And you stil do nothing to gaive us any possible method by which the sorting of the fossils occurred. NONE!

YOu also expose that there would be a reasonable suspicion that such a catastrophe would leave no fossils at all. Think of the sheer amount of destruction you describe. One YEer, Baumgardner I think, has calculated that the water velocity would be in the hundreds of feet per second range. He does this for erosional reasons, of course. But this would pulverize all the dead life and mean that you would find nothing more than scattered bits of body parts. Not delicate preserved fossils.

Any idea how to get the meanders and angular uncomformities of the Grand Canyon yet?

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/66/29.html

Just how did it make the oil fields? Life would have been pulverized and scattered, not concentrated and buried.

How did the change in the earth's tilt occur? Bu what process? You are aware that we can measure the tilt in the past, aren't you?

How did the flood sort all those rock layers according to the ratio or radioactive isotopes in them?

Who doubts that such a flood would be powerful? THe doubt is that it could give us what we actually see. LEt me know ehn you have logical, factual, supportable, falsifiable explanations of the above. Then we can continue.

 

[Bro. James]

The mechanism of all the destruction?

The same mechanism that shut the door on the Ark.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[UTEOTW]

Not looking for the destruction. That is obvious. Looking for the results. The results do not match the description.

How did that level of destruction sort the fossils into the same order worldwide? How did it not destroy all the life before it could even be fossilized? Why do the fossils themselves not show signs of being produced in such an event? How did the rocks ger sorted according to ratios of isotopes? How did the Grand Canyon form? How did the oil form? What changed the tilt of the earth's orbit?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by UTEOTW:
[QB]

Oh, Bob, you make my case even better than I can. Your silence on how to get that particular mix of species all in the same layer...

UTEOTW - you are the perfect illustration for the point of this thread - that Evolutionists simply can't muster the critical thinking and objectivity to respond.

So far the question on how evolutionism compares in magnitude to other errors - if one discovers that it is in fact error - goes without response.

It is getting to be pretty obvious that evolutionists just are not up to the task - because they can not get out of the mode of engaging ins wild guesswork and making up stories about what did not happen at the flood -- stories that are "easy enough to make up but can not be tested so it is in fact another example of the NOT-Science endeavors" of evolutionists.

Or is it because you KNOW the magnitude of doctrinal error that is represented by the atheists only hope and faith for the doctrine on evolutionism??

I suppose that could be it as well. However from your empty quesswork on the flood so far - I would doubt it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BTW, did the flood also manage to sort rocks according to the ratios of radioactive isotopes? Because the rocks we find sure are sorted in that manner! What was the mechanism for that?!?

Another wild story - without data to prove IT!

"OBVIOUSLY" the rocks laid down in a slow sedimentation process aFTER the flood show an aging staircase. BUT it is totally FALSE that we only find rocks in that order. The wild guesswork of zealous believers in evolutionism not withstanding.

The Adirondack Mountains are young, but these young mountains are made from old rocks. How do we explain this seeming contradiction? First, we try to answer many other questions....

At some point we must ask about evolutionism's devotees -- Is there no limit to their wild claims??

No wonder you are having such a hard time answering the question of this thread on the magnitude of error of evolutionism.

Why not leave the factless void you are stuck in just for the sake of this thread? Engage in some objective critical thinking and tell us what you view the magnitude of the evolutionist doctrine on origins to be - if it is wrong.

In christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Many atheists believe that earth "just happened" due to mother nature - the goddess of evolutionism - placing it here.

Many Christians believe that God's Word is true and that God actually placed the earth here, designed its foundations and directly - deathlessly desease-less-ly extermination-less-ly created all species by speaking them into existince as His Word describes.

We "observe" then that he created radioactive elements deep in the earth's crust to provide the bulk of the heat that is there. Obviously the maximum rate of radioactive activity would not be "healthy" to have at the surface.

Have you ever done "radiometric dating" on spent fuel rods? Do you know what happens to normal rates of decay when exposed to higher than normal radiation environments?

In any case - the true devotee to evolutionism will never let these inconvenient facts get in the way of "a story easily made up" - as UTEOTW has demonstrated repeatedly.

So the question remains - how muc of an "error" would evolutionism be as compared to other well known classic errors of Christian doctrine?

In Christ,


Bob

 

[UTEOTW]

So the answer is that you have no explanations for my questions, correct? I don't see any answers anwhere!

 

[Bro. James]

The Who, What, and How--

The Word of God--when God speaks, things happen.

Whether we can demonstrate such things in our "Laboratory" or not is our problem--not His.

Why can we not believe what He says??

We can stop counting celluloid cells now--we are surely "in the woods".
Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Bro. James]

The Who, What, and How--

The Word of God--when God speaks, things happen.

Whether we can demonstrate such things in our "Laboratory" or not is our problem--not His.

Why can we not believe what He says??

We can stop counting celluloid cells now--we are surely "in the woods".
Selah,

Bro. James

 

[UTEOTW]

There are specific questions that are still unanswered. Thses are critical questions since the answers seem to be at odds with you assertions. Being unable to answer highlights this fact.

 

[Bro. James]

Forcing the Paradigm--

The basic disagreement in this issue is that trying to force The Word of God to fit what we think we see, using the evolution paradigm, seldom works.

The Word of God winds up in second place to man's tunnel vision of what he thinks he sees in his piles of overturned earth.

Man thinks--therefore he is confused.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[UTEOTW]

So the answer is that you assert that these things can be explained but you are unable to articulate a factual, logical, falsifiable process for how.

 

[Bro. James]

Falsifiability--

Is a basic fault with evolution--presented as science, it cannot be proven true or false--all the proof is based on unnecessary inference and speculation from skewed and scanty evidence.

That is not science but rather religion. The world is full of religion--most of it false.

Falsifiability is a basic tenet of the scientific method. Evolution does not hold up under the scrutiny of real scientific methodology.

God made the laws of real science. He also wrote the Book--not a science book. The Bible has not changed every ten years or less.

The Book has been attacked by the most skillful skeptics, past and present. The Book remains--a witness against all scoffers and skeptics.

The world is going to be judged by "The Book"-- not "Darwin's Finchs"--are we ready?

Selah,

Bro. James