Ex-Calvinism (Why I am no longer a Calvinist)

[JonC]

This seems to sidestep the question, as it does not specifically address what the punishment is. It is unclear whether you are denying punishment altogether, or have an idea of how the punishment rendered at the judgment will lead to rehabilitation, or what. Again, this may need a separate thread.

I am saying mankind was under the law of sin and death, that the wages of sin is death. I am saying Christ freed us from this bondage by bearing our sins in His flesh and becoming a curse for us, becoming a life giving Spirit.

The punishment think is your theology to defend, not mine.

 

[JonC]

A biblical case has been made in this thread for some of those presuppositions and you either failed to see them or you reject them. Either is fine but they have been made. That is far from smoke. That is fire.

A biblical case has not been made to presuppose the Calvinistic judicial philosophy. That was my only objection. People asked questions about my view, but that one position has not been defended biblically.

That is the problem (historically) with discussing this topic. Some people will respond with insults, others will pick apart minor statements and topics, while others will defend ideas not even being argued. But no one will address the reason it is necessary to presuppose divine justice demands that sins be punished so that they can be forgiven.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I am saying mankind was under the law of sin and death, that the wages of sin is death. I am saying Christ freed us from this bondage by bearing our sins in His flesh and becoming a curse for us, becoming a life giving Spirit.

The punishment think is your theology to defend, not mine.

Again, this doesn't seem to address the point raised. Are you saying that there is no punishment at all? Or are you saying that the punishment is death, which rehabilitates all, or leads to rehabilitation of all, or what?

The original issue raised, which piqued my curiosity, was whether punishment made sense apart from rehabilitation. Biblically speaking, a mandated death penalty does not seem rehabilitative to the one executed. "You must purge the evil from among you."

Just to clarify, does your paradigm regarding the law of sin and death involve no punishment? The biblical paradigm seems to be that without sin, no death results. Only violating the law by sinning results in death, that is, sin earns death. Most would interpret that to be a punishment as opposed to a reward, but perhaps you think it is neither?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

George Antonios,


The elect were always viewed as being in Christ, in saving union with their mediator and surety.

Yes!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perhaps a song.....
GLORY TO YOU, CHRIST JESUS
GLORIA A TE, CRISTO GESÙ

Glory to you, Christ Jesus

you will reign today and for ever
Glory to you! You will soon come;
you alone are our hope!
Praise be to you!
Christ our Lord,
you offer forgiveness,
you demand justice:
the year of grace
opens its gates.
In you alone
is peace and unity.
Amen! Alleluia!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It reminds me of what Barth considered looking for a "back door" to Christ. He denied any theology about God that was not centered solely on Christ as being theology at all.. It's just philosophy. (We all probably disagree with Barth on many things but his Christ-centered approach to God had an impression me).

That in turn reminds me of old nun teaching in catholic school..... the back door to Christ was Mary.. Go to Mary (she is the feminine form, the one full of Grace to lead you to salvation). I abhor that, it’s quite heretical and it displaces the function of the Trinity.

 

[JonC]

Again, this doesn't seem to address the point raised. Are you saying that there is no punishment at all? Or are you saying that the punishment is death, which rehabilitates all, or leads to rehabilitation of all, or what?

The original issue raised, which piqued my curiosity, was whether punishment made sense apart from rehabilitation. Biblically speaking, a mandated death penalty does not seem rehabilitative to the one executed. "You must purge the evil from among you."

Just to clarify, does your paradigm regarding the law of sin and death involve no punishment? The biblical paradigm seems to be that without sin, no death results. Only violating the law by sinning results in death, that is, sin earns death. Most would interpret that to be a punishment as opposed to a reward, but perhaps you think it is neither?

There is punishment. In terms of sin (apart from considering the work of Christ) the wages of sin is death. But when we consider the Cross we also have to consider that all judgment has been given to the Son. The punishment "on that day" is God's wrath against the wicked. We are delivered from the "wrath to come" in Christ. Those not "in Christ" remain in their sin and are condemned.

One issue is "penalty" and "punishment" are not synonyms. Another is I view this issue in context of a Covenant. Mankind was under the law of sin and death. Those in Christ are given eternal life. Those not will remain in their sins and suffer condemnation as death and hades are cast into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

A problem that we run into on these types of discussions is very often arguing against one point causes people to make conclusions that may not be true about one's position itself. I think @Reformed came to a few of these conclusions regarding my statements about "foreknowing". I was not declaring a view I hold but stating that there are at least two views of the term. So as not to cloud the issue I should probably simply stick to the facts - that is that I left Calvinism because I did not see the philosophy of justice Calvinism bases redemption upon to be biblically sound. Other things are of course affected by this conclusion, but this is the root cause.

It would be better to discuss aspects of what I do believe on a thread appropriate to that topic. I think it would help prevent false assumptions and people grasping at an amalgamation of ideas that may not be reflective of my beliefs.

 

[JonC]

That in turn reminds me of old nun teaching in catholic school..... the back door to Christ was Mary.. Go to Mary (she is the feminine form, the one full of Grace to lead you to salvation). I abhor that, it’s quite heretical and it displaces the function of the Trinity.

Yep. There is only one way to the Father, and that is Christ.

 

[37818]

How is it justice rendered by punishing one person instead of punishing another? Why does justice require punishment apart from punishing the offender? Why punishment at all if not directed towards rehabilitation?

Matthew 25:41, ". . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ." That being the reason given.

Exodus 32:33, ". . . And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ." Psalms 69:27-28.

Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." That being the reason given for the lost actually perishing.

 

[JonC]

Matthew 25:41, ". . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ." That being the reason given.

Exodus 32:33, ". . . And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ." Psalms 69:27-28.

Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." That being the reason given for the lost actually perishing.

But none of those passages address my objection.

They are verses we both affirm and I even referenced earlier on this thread supporting my view.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yep. There is only one way to the Father, and that is Christ.

And you’re saying that Calvinism does NOT teach this?

 

[37818]

But none of those passages address my objection.

They are verses we both affirm and I even referenced earlier on this thread supporting my view.

I am not understanding your argument. Christ in being the propitiation did suffer and die on the cross prior to His physical death (John 19:28).

 

[JonC]

And you’re saying that Calvinism does NOT teach this?

Nope. They do teach that.

 

[JonC]

I am not understanding your argument. Christ in being the propitiation did suffer and die on the cross prior to His physical death (John 19:28).

I agree, Christ suffered and died. I believe this was under the "curse", the law of sin and death, in order to free us from its bondage and give us life.

It was not instead of us as we also suffer and die physically.

I am not sure it can be viewed as "punishment", although it is a penalty.

For example, the penalty one will suffer for overindulgence in alcohol is a hangover. The penalty for gluttony is obesity. I am not confident these can be called punishments (but perhaps it's just my understanding of punishment).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nope. They do teach that.

OK then prove it.

 

[JonC]

OK then prove it.

It is not up to me to prove (I gave up Calvinism years ago). If Calvinists do not teach this then they are not Christian at all.

The burden of proof is on you.

Prove Calvinists teach multiple ways to the Father.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is not up to me to prove (I gave up Calvinism years ago). If Calvinists do not teach this then they are not Christian at all.

The burden of proof is on you.

Prove Calvinists teach multiple ways to the Father.

ha ha ha... Why? I’m not a Calvinist! You are the one that started this thread.

 

[JonC]

ha ha ha... Why? I’m not a Calvinist! You are the one that started this thread.

Yep. Saying I am not a Calvinist.

Calvinists are Christians. They believe Christ is the only way. I am not going to prove it to you. You do not have to believe Calvinists to be Christian.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yep. Saying I am not a Calvinist.

Calvinists are Christians. They believe Christ is the only way. I am not going to prove it to you. You do not have to believe Calvinists to be Christian.

Oh contrar, I do believe them to be Christians, I just disagree with them on some of the theology.

 

[JonC]

Oh contrar, I do believe them to be Christians, I just disagree with them on some of the theology.

Then to answer your question, the proof is Calvinists believe those who are elected are elected to Christ (the Father gives them to Christ). As I said, they don't teach another way but Christ.