What do you consider constitutes "regenerated?"
Most folks use the term with the definition that it is renewing or making alive again.
But what is yours?
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Exalting the view of man
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What do you consider constitutes "regenerated?"
Most folks use the term with the definition that it is renewing or making alive again.
But what is yours?
It doesn't matter how we define it, its how the Bible does. Its passing from spiritual death to spiritual life. This ONLY occurs in Christ.
It is answers like this that make it so difficult to have a reasonable conversation. You just avoided the question in order to side track the issue. Why can't cals just answer questions in a straight forward way.
It is nothing more than a yes or no question first then it is reasonable to add more for clarity. Outside of that you are just side tracking and dodging issues.
As usual, you are inaccurate and you fail to see the application. The quote is also in reference to workers in a vineyard, their wages and the householder's appraisal of the darkness in them. Same thing in the parable of the marriage feast.
No,
No dodging or side track in the least - but to draw out how that even in the defining it denies the views of a later regeneration.
Here is the clarifying:
MOST folks think of regeneration as what Webdog stated and sometime referred too as "Its passing from spiritual death to spiritual life."
BUT then (as the typical discussion goes on the BB) want to contend that a person isn't really spiritually dead or have been given some type of "prevenient (preceding) grace" to make them capable with some kind of freedom.
This thread isn't upon such grace, but I use that to illustrate that some kind of HUMAN scheme had to be superimposed upon the scriptures to explain the "quickening" (as the Scriptures calls it) that makes a person's intellect aware of the claim of Christ upon their life, and that the "Christ coming into a person's heart" was at the point of "acceptance" of His invitation. But that thinking is found no where in the Scriptures, and actually contrary to the Scriptures.
One could also (as I have) point to the difference in Godly conviction (sorrow) and worldly sorrow. That there MUST be the direct and purposed work of the Holy Spirit (for that is the job) for it to really be Godly sorrow.
Therefore, "regeneration" is this quickening (or the awakening) for NOWHERE does the Scriptures teach a second quickening or a later quickening, but a single "being made alive in Christ."
Unless this "regeneration" (this quickening) be from the start of Godly conviction, there would be no cry "what must I do to be saved," nor would the heart have undergone the plowing and preparing to hear the gospel, and no salvation for the person would remain spiritually dead as the other grounds of the parable.
That some want this quickening to happen AFTER or AT THE POINT of salvation would only be valid IF one holds to some kind of preceding /prevenient grace (which is not Scriptural), OR admits that the quickening is in fact AT THE POINT of salvation at which can ONLY be found at the time Godly conviction is first realized as opposed to worldly sorrow.
The question was not a distraction, and was to draw the readers to consider Scriptures above the typical human schemes which try to indicate that a person can still be spiritually dead and communicate about salvation with the living God. Spiritually dead don't have a Godly care about anything outside the flesh and the devil, the ruler of their kingdom.
Let's say the jail's foundations were weakened and it collapsed and crushed everyone right before the Apostles' answer.
Would he be saved? Why or why not?
No, no dodging whatsoever. It's just that I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
This phrase jumped out at me:
..."quickening" (as the Scriptures calls it) that makes a person's intellect aware of the claim of Christ upon their life,
Is this your definition of regeneration?
Also, where in scripture do we find the jailer's "heart having undergone the plowing and preparing to hear the gospel"?
Look guys, you will get absolutely nowhere by using illustrations like this because you have to guess what and when something is occurring inside a person like the Jailor when the text does not say a word about his inwards.
Using parables, iexternal llustrations, spritualizations, etc. is not the foundation of sound doctrine. Doctrine must be established upon precepts and clear unambiguous scriptures.
This is the problem, the Arminian point of view cannot be established upon precepts and unambigous scripture and so they are forced to use parables, external illustrations, spiritualizations, thus ambigous scriptures to both defend and run from explicit precepts.
This is exactly what I was attempting (though admittedly poor) to get across.
In fact, the whole scheme that some rely upon (which obliges some kind of prevenient or preceding grace) is not found at all in Scriptures but manipulates the same using human engineering.
The clear teaching of Scriptures is that from the first impulse of Godly conviction to the final glorification, Christ is the author and finisher.
Without the direct and purposed work of the Holy Spirit the unbeliever is totally unconcerned other than worldly sorrow about their condition. But Godly Sorrow is of not of that sorrow that results in death.
Regeneration is not when someone decides of their own volition to accept. That in itself is a statement of human involvement in salvation, that humankind must DO something in order that God is able to complete the process.
That would not make Christ the author of salvation - but man.
Such are the statements, though, of those who do not consider that from the determination of the use of the ground the master of the field is in control.
Regeneration is considered as a taking what was dead and instilling life into it. Does not the Scriptures state, "We are HIS creation, created in Christ Jesus," and does not such a creator not prepare the materials, gather the elements, and layout a design before starting the creation? Does not such a design also consider the purpose and useful service?
Reader, look carefully at the sequence:
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Now, this post is laced with Scriptures, and not one is taken out of context, and all point out the flaw of those who would exalt humankind into any involvement other than as reactionary to salvation.
BTW, had the jail collapsed before the jailor got an answer, he would have been saved, for his heart already acknowledged the need and his intellect just needed to be instructed. "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness."
It is the "mind" of the carnal man that is the obstacle to either loving or submitting to God's revealed will (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14). Hence, some form of transformation of the mind must occur previous to repentance or faith in the gospel or it simply will not occur as long as that mind set exists.
Paul continues to describe the difference in this mindset by only two options in Romans 8:8-9.
1. "in the flesh" = this resistant mindset
2. "in the Spirit" = the saved mindset
Likewise in Ephesians 2:1-10. The previous condition or unregenerated condition is stated clearly in Ephesians 2:1 "dead in tresspasses and sins"as well as the cause for changing that condition "quickened."
The former unregenerated state is then described in Ephesians 2:2-3 and again what changed that condition is again identified as "quickened" in Ephesians 2:4-7.
This act of being "quickened" in verse 5 is framed this way "
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Notice Paul does not give the cause to repentance and faith in the gospel or to the human will but "WHEN" they were dead God quickened us "together with Christ" and this divine quicking "with" Christ can be just as easily translated "in Christ" as in verse 10.
However, notice the closing parenthetical phrase "by grace ye are saved" as descriptive of this quickening in Christ when they were dead spiritually.
That phrase is again picked up by Paul in Ephesians 2:8 where Ephesians 2:8-10 is a further expansion of verse 5 of what it means to be QUICKENED (saved) by grace.
In Ephesians 2:8 the periphrastic construct "are ye saved" refers to a completed action at some point in the past that continues completed right up to the present. In other words, divine quickening occurred at that point "when they were dead" in their sins which delivered from spiritual death to spiritual life (quickened). Significantly this periphrastic perfect construct completed action in the past included "through faith" making faith inseparable from the action of being quickened. Thus "faith" is inseparable from quickening and it is this union between quickening and faith that is what Paul refers to as being "saved" which is not of themseles but a gift of God.
"Saved" is passive" and is further described as "God's workmanship CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS" just as verse 5 "quickened together with Christ."
The act of quickening is inclusive of faith all of which is God's workmanship of being created in Christ. Quickening gives spiritual life because it is the giving of a believing new heart. This new heart is the consequence of a divine creative command (2 Cor. 4:6) wherein the interior of man is translated out of darkness into light = revelation of knowledge of God in the face of jesus Christ. Hence, a new MINDSET is imparted by a divine act of God that loves and submits to God in contrast to the former mindset (Rom. 8:7). This is a believing mindset just as the former was a mindset of unbelief. This is the creation of a new inward man created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph. 4:24).
Quickening is giving of spiritual life (union) with God which is impossible apart from "faith" (Heb. 11:6) as faith is inseparable from any kind of UNION with God.
Divine quickening is the creation of internal light = knowledge by revelation of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 4:6) or a believing new heart.
The product of faith is justification which obtains a different kind of eternal life, one that is not SPIRITUAL but one that is JUDICIAL. Spiritual life by new birth effects our PERSON but eternal life by faith effects our legal POSITION. The former makes children by birth whereas the latter makes us Sons by legal adoption. The former deals with our NATURE whereas the latter deals with our LEGAL position before the Law. The former deals with our CONDITION whereas the latter deals with our POSITION.
Hence, the logical order is "spiritual quickening, gospel conversion, justification" but there is no chronological order as they are inseparable as the bullet is to the hole. Or it can be said this way, "spiritual life, gospel conversion to legal life." Both spritiual and legal are equally eternal life. The former is IMPARTED to our Person the latter is IMPUTED to our Position.
Therefore, there is no such thing as a unregenerated beleiver any more than a regenerated unbeliever as regeneration and faith are inseparable but in a proper cause and effect order (1 Jn. 5:1).
We have eternal life that is Spiritual through IMPARTATION T
UR NATURE but we also have eternal life that is LEGAL through IMPUTATION BY OUR POSITION before God.For example, in regard to our PERSON and NATURE we were both spiritually dead and legally dead. Our CONDITION was spiritually dead which was due to our LEGAL POSITION before the Law of God of condemnation to eternal death. Thus we were "dead" in two different senses. In the sense of our own CONDITION and in the sense of our LEGAL POSITION. Likewise, in reverse we obtain SPIRITUAL eternal life in regard to our CONDITION and PERSON while we receive LEGAL eternal life in regard to our LEGAL POSITION through justification by faith. Neither conflict with the other, one is imparted, the other is imputed.
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a
Scripture:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
I see actions being taken by man to get saved in these verses. God could complete the process regardless of what man does, but God desires our cooperation.
That's a conclusion that you are making so it will fit your theology.
Yes, when did this happen? Where does the Bible say that he was regenerated prior to entering the jail cell? You are saying that the Word would not have been needed to have been heard by the jailer, Acts 16:32--And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. AND Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
And, anyway if his heart had "acknowledged the need" isn't that man adding unto his salvation, for if his heart had never acknowledged the need, he would be a lost soul, correct?
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Great verse, it would mean that one must speak a confession to actually be saved, but thankfully Romans 10:9 is followed by Romans 10:10.
Romans 10:10:
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
The sequence as important! The Scriptures state that the heart belief is what makes for justification.
That the mouth will proclaim (profess) the salvation.
The mouth does not bring salvation, nor is it the catalyst to even start salvation.
The mouth is responsive declaring that some major change has taken place in the heart - salvation.
Unfortunate it is for those who desire to have someone pray a sinner's prayer and therefore salvation be granted.
NO WHERE does such ever occur in Scriptures. Nor, is it EVER a part of any account of one who believes in Scripture.
Correct.
Who "received Him?"
Thankfully John 1:12 is followed by John 1:13:
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Again, the Scriptures do not have human involvement, but human response to God's work.
To "see (the) actions being taken by man to get saved" is typical of one who has the view that human involvement is essential to activate salvation.
But as shown above, that view is taking only a portion of what the Scriptures state, and not the whole matter.
Either salvation is all of God or no salvation takes place.
No, it is not "a conclusion that (I am) making so it will fit (my) theology." It is quoting Paul: In Hebrews 12.
12 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
That I happen to agree with Paul has little to do with my theological view, but my agreement has everything to do in taking the Scriptures at face value.3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
If one is a "new creation, created in Christ Jesus" it no more depended upon humankind involvement than the original creation of Adam and Eve.
The creation of Adam and Eve was TOTALLY of God, by God, the authority of God, and at God's good pleasure and purpose. Neither Adam nor Eve had any choice in the matter, nor was their opinion sought.
This is really a not good argument.
Can you show me when the Eunuch, the thief on the cross, Nicodemus, the apostles, or any other is shown as EVER experiencing "regeneration" in the Scriptures?
LOOK at your own verses in which you "proof text" in attempt to support your thinking.
Do you consider that the Jailor heard (as well as other prisoners) what what going on in the jail BEFORE the earthquake?
What were they doing in the cell?
Moaning and bemoaning?
NO!
"25 But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns of praise to God, and the prisoners were listening to them;"
Anyone who has ever been in a prison knows how noisy it is with all manner of evil speaking. Yet, here are the prisoners, quiet, listening. Certainly, the Jailor had never encountered this in his cell block, and certainly curiosity would compel him to listen at the door to the Scriptures in song and prayer, too.
Therefore, all your proof-text does is actually support what I shared, and does not in the slightest refute it.
The Scriptures state:
9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?
10 “I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds."
Obviously the desire of some human element obliges that there just MUST be a part of the salvation in which humankind is involved, and some actually make the involvement the catalyst that brings about salvation. And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?
10 “I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds."
However, to invent that theology of human involvement, a warp of the Scriptures must take place and declarations of theology from such warping provides a faulty foundation that just crumbles before the true light of the Scriptures.
DrJamesAch
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As a Jew, I've never asked God why He blinded my kinsmen according to the flesh and opened the door for the Gentiles. Thus that ignorant comment about "why doth he find fault" has never applied
What is funny about that verse which is ALWAYS misquoted by Calvinists is that they will be the first to admit that WHO the elect are can not be known (or at least any HONEST Calvinist would admit that). So if a person does not know for sure if they are elect, then how could they possibly be asking God "why have you made me thus?". If their election is unknown, then they have nothing to question God about! Why would a person who doesn't even know he's damned, be asking God why he's damned?
But, contemplating the logical conclusions and implications of theological presuppositions has never been a Calvinist strong suit. If they really understand the implications of that verse according to their interpretation of Romans 9, they would see just how absurd that accusation is.
"and are justified"....."and are saved"
Interesting how you emphasize one and down play the other. The fact is they are both sides of the same coin and you have made an attempt to split the coin.
V.10 shows the order you like so you dismiss the previous verse. But the truth is it is improper exegesis to interpret v.10 outside of the context of v.9, just as it is improper to interpret v. 9 outside of the context of v.10.
Both verses are saying the same thing and clearly show that order is not the subject of this issue. What is clear is that both elements have to be involved. Those two elements are confession and belief. V. 9 places confession first, and v. 10 places belief first. As I said two sides of the same coin.
And I suggest that the only reason anyone would need to split the coin is because they are viewing these verses through the lens of an incorrect view of the sovereignty of God. This would cause one to read into scripture what is not there and look for a chronology that is not intended by the passage. Such an order is not even in view.
However, if order or chronology is important in your mind then you need to consider the following. Abraham was not declared righteous until after his response to God. Zacchaeus was not declared saved until he responded to Jesus. In fact I would be interested for you to show me a similar example that shows your order you are claiming. So if order or chronology is important to you then you at least need to give careful consideration to these two events and the order of the response and the declaration of salvation.
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Is this not essentially what I posted?
So far we would be in agreement, unlike the post to which I was responding in that only one of the verses were used.
That you state them as the same, doesn't mean that I would or do.
I suggest that anyone who does not render these verses as I showed is attempting to insert some human involvement that must take place before salvation is in force. That removes God and puts man in charge. The order is highly important, and that you desire not to put a priority upon that order is merely being obliged by your own theological paradigm.
I really don't have time tonight to do this justice, but let's get a bit out of the way.
Romans 10:
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?"
Look again at verse 9.
The verse would be read as: "Because if you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you will be saved."
Verse 9 is reaching back to verse 8 to explain “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.”
The question is raised by many - which comes first. Obviously, Paul knew that some might be confused about the issue, so he further clarified verse 8 with not only verse 9 but verse 10.
"for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Unfortunate it is that some would desire to place human involvement into what Paul is stating, but that doesn't hold true to the text.
Rather, Paul is affirming that the change in the heart is proclaimed by the mouth.
This becomes more pronounced as Paul continues - he puts stress on the word belief and makes sure the reader knows that it is the heart belief that is primary.
The proclamation does not bring the changed heart.
One can intellectualize and pray a "sinner's prayer" all day long, but that makes for no true heart change.
However, when the heart is changed, there cannot help but be proclamation of salvation.
In the Greek, the word "eis" indicates a motion, often translated into, unto, ... and the idea is that the belief moves the heart into righteousness which propels the mouth into (proclaiming) salvation. I use the word proclaiming because that is what the mouth does - it eats and talks.
Then to further reinforce the matter, Paul brings in verse 11.
For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
(in the KJV - "disappointed" is "ashamed" which I think is actually a better word than what the NASB uses)
However, the point is that the emphasis again is on belief - such belief will not bring disgrace, disappointment, or make ashamed.
Finally, Paul gets to a transitional sentence in which (imo) he is using to bring the reader along to the next topic of discussion.
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
By now, if you have read this far, you will note that Paul is stressing belief over the vocal activity. That vocal activity is brought about by the dramatic belief change in the heart.
"How will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?" only intellectually - which is not salvation.
"How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" this is why we have the great commission.
"How will they hear without a preacher?" one who proclaims, messenger, a witness, one who testifies of the truth.
I am too weary to respond to the rest.
Needless to say, there is nothing in dispute with what I have posted in the testimony presented about Abraham, Zaacheus or any other such Biblical example.
I have seen this posted over and over again. But not once have I seen any attempt to prove it from scripture. And I would add that saying salvation is by the will of God and not man does nothing to prove your statement. So long as God has decreed that man respond then it is still all God.
I think it foolish for anyone outside of Christ to proclaim one either lost or saved on the grounds of outside appearance only.
It is Christ who perceives the heart, and to whom will turn away some, saying, "Depart from me. I never new you."
James, you are really irritating, sometimes.
At the first that I quoted from you, you were correct - not only about Calvinistic thinking folks but any one who makes that sort of condemnation. We are not to make that kind of judgment of condemnation about anyone.
Then in the above quote - you really mess up.
You shift from a person knowing the condition of someone else to it being applied to them self.
Why do you do that?
Do you really think we are all that stupid to fall for that kind of bait and switch?
Here in Texas, one don't attempt to ride the neighbor's horse and claim it is their own without someone looking at the brand.
If your going to make a point about one not knowing they are saved or not, then don't attempt to cover it over by applying a blanket of knowing if someone else is saved or not.
Really,
So, using your statement of "So long as God has decreed that man respond..." if one merely mentally ascents that Jesus is Lord and prays the "sinner's prayer," that person is saved?
One does not lead to the other. Your characterization of what I said is unfounded and most likely based on what you have seen from other people. It is a mistake to paint me in light of anyone else theology. I disagree with your statement above.
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