Examining some of the misguided claims of 316 Tradionalists

[TCassidy]

That is all I meant by seeing things from God's perspective.

Okay, I can live with that. I saw the original statement as being similar to this:

Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[InTheLight]

Okay, I can live with that. I saw the original statement as being similar to this:

Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Wow. Why in the world would you be reminded of this verse because of my statement?

 

[David Kent]

• Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
• 2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
• 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
• 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
• 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
• 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
• 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
• 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
• 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
• 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things .after the counsel of his own will:
• 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
• 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
• 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory

 

[steaver]

• Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
• 2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
• 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
• 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
• 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
• 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
• 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
• 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
• 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
• 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things .after the counsel of his own will:
• 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
• 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
• 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory

Amen! Good post!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1:15 AM Pacific.

 

[McCree79]

McCree79, the problem is that I'm looking at Reformed theology from God's perspective and you are mixing man and God's perspectives and coming up with all these ancillary points.

Paul had no problem with "the already and not yet theology"

Romans 8:29-30 seems to lay stages. Paul had no issue doing. Does the Bible not frequently speak of things from a man's perspective? Or do you actually believe is is the sun that rises and sets? Pslam's has no issue writing from man's perspective at times.

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[McCree79]

McCree79, the problem is that I'm looking at Reformed theology from God's perspective

Then why can't you understand reformed theology?

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[TCassidy]

Why in the world would you be reminded of this verse because of my statement?

Because I see both as metaphorical statements.

 

[InTheLight]

Then why can't you understand reformed theology?

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For the most part I understand it just fine. I just don't agree with it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Not what you said. You said "everyone is born a resident of Hell." That directly contradicts the main tenet of Calvinistic soteriology, namely, that God elects people for salvation from "before the foundation of the world."

Election took place in eternity, but it comes to fruition in time.

An elected official is elected in November, but doesn't take office until January.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ridiculous. Name a single sin that a fetus has committed.

By being in Adam. When Adam fell, he being the representative of all his posterity, his sin caused all of us to be born condemned. Otherwise, babies could not die, seeing the wages of sin is death.[Romans 6:23]

In Romans 5 we see this as a reality. Also 1 Corinthians 15:22.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No I think it's a matter of perspective. There's is the idea of metonymy and even possibly hyperbolic statements are being applied. I'd kindly suggest one has to rightly divide the word of truth to know the difference. One might even say politically, "I hate Hillary supporters" or the reverse with Trump. I've even seen parents who are say exasperated with a rebellious offspring and exclaim or feel that they hate their own kid. Or they hate their mother-in-law. Does that mean they TRULY do? No and their spirit reaches out to LOVE them unconditionally. If God truly did HATE sinners than how could God EVER exhort us to, "Love our enemies, and do good to them which hate us"?? If he wasn't willing to do the same could anyone with any sincerity not call that hypocrisy?

Its not a matter of perspective but theology. And whenever a verse or passage of verses speaks to God actually hating ppl, ppl resort to allegorical or figurative or hyperbolic language. It says that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Ppl then say that means God loved Esau, too, just a little less. The Christ said we can not serve two masters, we can not love two masters, but we must love one and hate the other.[Matthew 6:24 & Luke 16:13] As Christians, by using that logic, we are to love Satan, just a little less than the Christ.

And if God's love is hyperbolic in biblical expression, how can we know for a surety His love is not hyperbolic as well??????

 

[SovereignGrace]

Election is part of salvation. It is not salvation in it totality. In time you can be elect, yet not justified(saved).

If the elect are never in sin, What are they saved from. Calvinist doctrine does not teach that the elect have never been outside of redemption. From our perspective in time, their was a time we are all lost. Despite being elect. We cannot claim the status of God's child until justification. .... and the process of salvation is not totally complete until glorification.


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Ephesians 2:3 easily answers their question concerning this. Election is NOT salvation, as you and @TCassidy already stated. But it is one aspect of it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Are you putting your parenting skills on par with God's word? On par with the gospel???? Seems ya did.

And preaching is not part of salvation. You have to have a accurate knowledge, but the knowledge does not save. Election and is the antecedent of salvation. Calling and Regeneration is the beginning of the salvation process. Not knowledge. Faith, justification(other objective aspects such as adoption and union with Christ), santification (which we cannot complete...God starts the process and will finish it) perseverance(which Jesus has to hold on to us) and finishing with glorification. This is salvation. Preaching saves no one. God uses it to prepare people. But it is not part of salvation. Just like you parenting is not part of salvation.



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Would you please clarify what you mean when you said 'And preaching is not part of salvation?' Thanks my Brother.

 

[InTheLight]

By being in Adam. When Adam fell, he being the representative of all his posterity, his sin caused all of us to be born condemned. Otherwise, babies could not die, seeing the wages of sin is death.[Romans 6:23]

In Romans 5 we see this as a reality. Also 1 Corinthians 15:22.

By being in Adam. When Adam fell, he being the representative of all his posterity, his sin caused all of us to be born condemned.

Yes, condemned to die. You're conflating the penalty of physical death with the penalty of spiritual death.

Otherwise, babies could not die, seeing the wages of sin is death.[Romans 6:23]

You've got cause and effect backwards.

Babies can physically die because Adam sinned and corrupted us all. Babies can die sinless.




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[SovereignGrace]

Yes, condemned to die. You're conflating the penalty of physical death with the penalty of spiritual death.

And if babies die sinless then the triune God is not the only one in heaven who is sinless.

Do you not see the disconnect in your theology? You say babies die due to sin of Adam, and that's true. So, if they die due to his sin and not their owns, then his sin has been imputed unto them. That's like saying someone died from the flu and never having been exposed to the flu virus.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

.This thread is closed.

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