Examining some of the misguided claims of 316 Tradionalists

[steaver]

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Is 1:18)

If the elect are never in sin, What are they saved from. Calvinist doctrine does not teach that the elect have never been outside of redemption. From our perspective in time, their was a time we are all lost. Despite being elect. We cannot claim the status of God's child until justification. .... and the process of salvation is not totally complete until glorification.

Thus you would agree God hates the elect until they are justified.

 

[InTheLight]

Election is part of salvation. It is not salvation in it totality. In time you can be elect, yet not justified(saved).

And how much time can pass between being elected and being justified?

If the elect are never in sin, What are they saved from.

Who said the elect were never in sin? I sure didn't.

Calvinist doctrine does not teach that the elect have never been outside of redemption. From our perspective in time, their was a time we are all lost.

Elect from before the foundation of the world does not allow for any time for an elect person to be lost. This is the problem with Calvinism. It's not logically consistent. Oh, I know you guys claim you have a systematic theology, but really, it's full of holes and contortions to make things fit.

Despite being elect. We cannot claim the status of God's child until justification. .... and the process of salvation is not totally complete until glorification.

The moment a person repents and believes they are justified. They are saved from Hell. You can add layers to salvation if you want (and I get it) but really, from a practical standpoint salvation means you are going to Heaven, not to Hell.

 

[McCree79]

That's like saying no God, man preaching the Gospel does not = Salvation ALL of God.

Are you putting your parenting skills on par with God's word? On par with the gospel???? Seems ya did.

And preaching is not part of salvation. You have to have a accurate knowledge, but the knowledge does not save. Election and is the antecedent of salvation. Calling and Regeneration is the beginning of the salvation process. Not knowledge. Faith, justification(other objective aspects such as adoption and union with Christ), santification (which we cannot complete...God starts the process and will finish it) perseverance(which Jesus has to hold on to us) and finishing with glorification. This is salvation. Preaching saves no one. God uses it to prepare people. But it is not part of salvation. Just like you parenting is not part of salvation.



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[McCree79]

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Is 1:18)


Thus you would agree God hates the elect until they are justified.

Where does that verse say anything about Him hating the elect. They were once sinners. But now redeemed.

He has elected them unto salvation. He knows(those he foreknown) them a head of "time", despite them not knowing Him. He does not hate or love based on works of man. Those he foreknown are as good as glorified from His perspective.

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[TCassidy]

So how can everyone born be a resident of Hell, if God does the electing from eternity past?

Simple. A man commits a crime. He is tried and found guilty and locked up in prison. Then the Governor decides to pardon the man when he leaves office. The convict remains a resident of that prison until the Governor pardons him.

President Trump was elected to the office of President in November 2016. He did not become President until January 2017.

I was elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, but I was not a born again child of God until 1974.

 

[TCassidy]

Elect from before the foundation of the world does not allow for any time for an elect person to be lost.

Election is not salvation. That is your error.

This is the problem with Calvinism.

No, it is a problem with your false characterization of "Calvinism."

 

[InTheLight]

Simple. A man commits a crime. He is tried and found guilty and locked up in prison. Then the Governor decides to pardon the man when he leaves office. The convict remains a resident of that prison until the Governor pardons him.

President Trump was elected to the office of President in November 2016. He did not become President until January 2017.

I was elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, but I was not a born again child of God until 1974.

Those are nice illustrations but according to your theology you were never in danger of being a resident of Hell, ever, because you were elected before the foundation of the world.

 

[InTheLight]

Election is not salvation. That is your error.

Can a person be elect and not be saved?

 

[McCree79]

And how much time can pass between being elected and being justified?

I dont know. Do you believe in a old earth or young earth? I was saved in 1991. So do math from the old earth and new earth dating and there ya go

Who said the elect were never in sin? I sure didn't.

"In sin" as opposed to "in Christ"? And yes you did say it....you say it again below. "Elect......does not allow any time for that person to be lost". You fail to consider man 's perspective on salvation and the process of salvation. Election is not salvation in the complete since. The "layer" you argue against is supported by Romans 8:29-30.

Elect from before the foundation of the world does not allow for any time for an elect person to be lost. This is the problem with Calvinism. It's not logically consistent. Oh, I know you guys claim you have a systematic theology, but really, it's full of holes and contortions to make things fit.

Failed logic. Addressed above. Election is not salvation in its completed form. Just part of it. In time one is elected before calling, regeneration, faith and glorification. So yes. To use common vocabulary the elect will be "lost" for a period of time. But from God's perspective they are as good as glorified (Romans 8:29-30).

The moment a person repents and believes they are justified.

Yes. Which is after Election, calling and regeneration.

They are saved from Hell. You can add layers to salvation if you want (and I get it) but really, from a practical standpoint salvation means you are going to Heaven, not to Hell.

Yes, you are saved from God's wrath. From the typical Calvinist view, most would say salvation occurred at justification, which you seem to agree with the quote above I am currently referencing. So SG can refer to elect being "lost" until they reach the point which you referred to as when they believe, and repent. As creatures we live in and are bound to time. Salvation moves linear in time for us. God who is not bound in time is not restricted to such a view of salvation.



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[McCree79]

Simple. A man commits a crime. He is tried and found guilty and locked up in prison. Then the Governor decides to pardon the man when he leaves office. The convict remains a resident of that prison until the Governor pardons him.

President Trump was elected to the office of President in November 2016. He did not become President until January 2017.

I was elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, but I was not a born again child of God until 1974.

Excellent analogies above

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[TCassidy]

Can a person be elect and not be saved?

Of course.

 

[TCassidy]

according to your theology you were never in danger of being a resident of Hell,

I see. So you are not reading the phrase "resident of hell" in the metaphorical sense it was intended but rather as an actual address? 221 B Diablo Street, Fiery Station, Hell 66666?

 

[InTheLight]

From the typical Calvinist view, most would say salvation occurred at justification, which you seem to agree with the quote above I am currently referencing. So SG can refer to elect being "lost" until they reach the point which you referred to as when they believe, and repent. As creatures we live in and are bound to time. Salvation moves linear in time for us. God who is not bound in time is not restricted to such a view of salvation.

McCree79, the problem is that I'm looking at Reformed theology from God's perspective and you are mixing man and God's perspectives and coming up with all these ancillary points.

 

[InTheLight]

Can a person be elect and not be saved?

Of course.

Can a person be elect and wind up in Hell when they die?

 

[TCassidy]

Can a person be elect and wind up in Hell when they die?

No. A believer cannot lose his salvation.

 

[TCassidy]

McCree79, the problem is that I'm looking at Reformed theology from God's perspective and you are mixing man and God's perspectives and coming up with all these ancillary points.

Do you really think you have the capacity to see things from God's perspective? Really? Isaiah 55:8-9.

 

[InTheLight]

Do you really think you have the capacity to see things from God's perspective? Really? Isaiah 55:8-9.

Not literally. But as a thought experiment.

From God's perspective an elect person is not, was not, and never would have been a resident of Hell.
From our perspective we considered ourselves lost and on our way to Hell until we repented and believed.

That is all I meant by seeing things from God's perspective.

 

[atpollard]

And how much time can pass between being elected and being justified?

What is the exact date of "In the beginning"? (Then I can approximate the math.)

 

[atpollard]

I dont know. Do you believe in a old earth or young earth? I was saved in 1991. So do math from the old earth and new earth dating and there ya go

Technically, weren't we justified when Jesus died on the cross?
So it is [date of crucifixion] - [In the beginning] = [time from election to justification]

 

[steaver]

Are you putting your parenting skills on par with God's word? On par with the gospel???? Seems ya did.

I thought we were talking about teaching our children the word of God. Would be the same as preaching the word.

And preaching is not part of salvation.

Never said it was. Salvation is ALL of God. Preaching is God's plan to bring people to His Salvation.