Exeedingly Sad

[Luke2427]

Apparently your logical mind cannot accommodate the thought that someone might believe that your attempt to put the Sovereign GOD of the Bible and creator of all that exists in your little logician's box is an exercise in futility.

You don't get it.

I suppose you can't.

Logic is not a box. It is not MY logic.

Logic is the only means whereby anyone makes ANY sense of ANYTHING.

The law of non-contradiction that I keep trying to tell you about is ESSENTIAL to anything making sense- including God.

If someone asked you if it were possible for God to lie, what would be your answer?

It would be, no, right?

Two points here: First of all, does that mean that YOU are putting God in a box? We'll call it your little box of morality.

And how STUPID would it sound to you for someone to say to you- "HEY! God doesn't fit in your little box of morality! Your moral mind can't comprehend that!"

That's idiotic right?

Right. And so is what you say above. It is idiotic for the exact same reason.

Point number two.

The only reason you can SAY "no" to that question is because you have absolute faith in the logicality of God. You believe that God CANNOT be both absolutely truthful and at the same time and in the same sense a complete liar.

Because if logic does not reign, God can be on one hand absolutely truthful and a full liar at the same time. When he says, "I do not lie." THAT can be the truth and be a lie.

You don't beleive it is... wait for it.... here it comes... BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE in LOGIC.

Not MY logic.

Not this stupid BOX of logic you keep ignorantly claiming someone is trying to put God in.

But real logic.

You believe in it.

You believe that God is logical. You do NOT believe that God is ILLOGICAL.

If God is NOT ILLOGICAL then NEITHER can your THEOLOGY be ILLOGICAL.

Now, I have explained this simply enough at this point that a SEVEN year old could get it.

If you still can't get it, there is no point in talking to you any further.

 

[saturneptune]

Maybe these things are a sign that we might be blessed with a revival of sorts here on the BB. That would be wonderful....and SN...I agree with you...the BB is definitely an important part of my life as well for which I thank God genuinely. It is a blessing and pleasure to be able to enjoy the fellowship of fellow believers here. Can't go to church everyday but we can come here. I have been unemployed for the last 9 months so it has been a blessing to spend a good chunk of my home-time here. I have a job interview that I am hopeful about today (Saturday) so I'd appreciate anybody who would lift my wife and I up in prayer about this. If I get the job it may shorten up my time here on-line but I'm here for life until I "go Home"...then I'll get to actually meet some of you fine folks!:thumbs:

Bro.Greg:saint:

Thank you for the kind words. What kind of work do you do? God has always blessed me with a good job and still does. I worked in the communication, electronics and networking field for three different federal government agenices over 36 years. Then, I went back to school and now work in an adult day care. I have sometimes had second jobs like closing manager for dollars stores and CVS. I guess I am kind of a jack of all trades. Anyway, I certainly wish the best for your new job and most of all, for you and your family. My prayers are with you. God bless you all.

 

[saturneptune]

I'm glad for the reconciliation. I don't think I've ever seen this done publicly on the Baptist Board. Apologies are rare on the BB. Good for you and the other guys.

Tom, thanks for the post, especially since you are the only one who has ever seen me in person on this board. By the way, in case I forgot to say it, the special music has really been good lately, as usual. I think that song of Gary's last Sunday really touched everyone.

 

[saturneptune]

God through the Apostle Paul reveals in the 1st Chapter of Romans the mind of man in his natural state. The wonder of it all is that God chose to save even one of us. But praise God He did. That is the Grace of Holy God and it seems that so many will not accept that truth.

Yes, I think Romans 1 makes it quite clear what we are able to discern in our natural state, ie, that there is a Creator. That is the first step towards hearing the Gospel, but knowing there is a Creator does not tell the story. That is why Paul goes on the say later that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

Without the Holy Spirit convicting us (having been chosen), the Gospel will not strike a chord in our soul. However, as Romans 1 implies, I have never understood how anyone could just look around at our world and not believe in some type of creator.

 

[OldRegular]

Gordon Haddon Clark (1902-1985) was the Chairman of the Philosophy Department at Butler University for 28 years. He was, as shown in the following quote, a proponent of logic as; Well you be the judge.

The following quotation is taken from an article by Clark as presented on the web site: http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=16 This site was provided by a dear brother on this Forum. A worthwhile critique of Clark can be found at: http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/1997/05/gordon-clark/

Logic Is God

It is to be hoped that these remarks on the relation between God and truth will be seen as pertinent to the discussion of logic. In any case, the subject of logic can be more clearly introduced by one more Scriptural reference. The well-known prologue to John’s Gospel may be paraphrased, “In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God.... In logic was life and the life was the light of men.”

I have emphasized the paraphrase of John 1:1-4 by Clark. It is my personal opinion that to say "logic is God' is not only stupid it is a blasphemous lie. There are apparently a number of people on this Baptist Board who consider themselves expert logicians and agree with Clark that Logic is God. That is their right but I must say that their God is a false god.

I presented in the OP of this thread a quotation by Skandelon which, attempting to discredit the Doctrines of Grace, is, in my opinion, an example of logic chasing its tail much like a dog. But that is just my opinion. It apparently is as solid as Gospel to some.

It is well to compare what Clark says above with what God states:

John 1:1-4
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

I worship God as revealed in Scripture, not a god developed and/or limited by so-called logic. I could not bring myself to call God the Word, who laid aside His Glory, who took upon Himself the form of man, and who paid the penalty for my sin "logic"! But then folks are different.

I spent my career as a teaching and working engineer. I doubt there is a good engineer who does not use logic. I also doubt there is a good engineer who would make "logic" their god! Hopefully no professing Christian will!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Gordon Haddon Clark (1902-1985) was the Chairman of the Philosophy Department at Butler University for 28 years. He was, as shown in the following quote, a proponent of logic as; Well you be the judge.

The following quotation is taken from an article by Clark as presented on the web site: http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=16 This site was provided by a dear brother on this Forum. A worthwhile critique of Clark can be found at: http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/1997/05/gordon-clark/



I have emphasized the paraphrase of John 1:1-4 by Clark. It is my personal opinion that to say "logic is God' is not only stupid it is a blasphemous lie. There are apparently a number of people on this Baptist Board who consider themselves expert logicians and agree with Clark that Logic is God. That is their right but I must say that their God is a false god.

I presented in the OP of this thread a quotation by Skandelon which, attempting to discredit the Doctrines of Grace, is, in my opinion, an example of logic chasing its tail much like a dog. But that is just my opinion. It apparently is as solid as Gospel to some.

It is well to compare what Clark says above with what God states:

John 1:1-4
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

I worship God as revealed in Scripture, not a god developed and/or limited by so-called logic. I could not bring myself to call God the Word, who laid aside His Glory, who took upon Himself the form of man, and who paid the penalty for my sin "logic"! But then folks are different.

I spent my career as a teaching and working engineer. I doubt there is a good engineer who does not use logic. I also doubt there is a good engineer who would make "logic" their god! Hopefully no professing Christian will!

WOW!!!!!! you just used Gordon H. Clarke as a defeater for the validity of "logic" in Scriptural debate!!! PLEASE! remind me to throw that particular gem in Luke's face when next I debate Calvinism vs. Arminianism with him...He'll NEVER live it down!!!! :laugh::laugh:

I would LOVE nothing MORE than to consign G.H. Clarke (a brilliant Calvinist commentator and Scriptural exegete) into Luke's face as someone he is NO LONGER allowed to quote!!!! Give it time Luke...in short order, you won't be allowed to quote Warfield, Boettner, Owens, or....well, heck, ANYONE!!!!

Poor Old Regular is destroying hundreds of years' worth of respectable Calvinist argumentation right in front of our faces!!! I LOVE IT!!!:wavey:

Do go on O.R. Do go on.

Dude....G.H. Clarke is a genius....
G.H. Clarke was a Bible-believing Christian.
G.H. Clarke's text-books are still used the world-over in Philosophy courses to students of logic
G.H. Clarke is an Evangelical Calvinist and brilliant mind...in fact...he was a veritable child prodigy genius (as the youngest man to hold the prestigious position he held)

........And you just ROBBED LUKE of quoting him!! LOL.....

I love it.

 

[saturneptune]

I spent my career as a teaching and working engineer. I doubt there is a good engineer who does not use logic. I also doubt there is a good engineer who would make "logic" their god! Hopefully no professing Christian will!

I do not recall seeing a verse in the Bible that said, "if you have seen Mr. Spock, you have seen the Father."

 

[OldRegular]

I do not recall seeing a verse in the Bible that said, "if you have seen Mr. Spock, you have seen the Father."

You mean Mr. Spock aka Gordon H. Clark!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I do not recall seeing a verse in the Bible that said, "if you have seen Mr. Spock, you have seen the Father."

right....but only idiots think that "Star-Trek" is a reasonably informed explanation of logic..it isn't. Never Was. I have even said so on this cite before. Luke wouldn't either. The reason is because Luke knows what logic is...and only idiots think that "Spock" represents something akin to reality about what "logic" is...........

Idiots, are people who don't know that Gordon C. Clarke (the Calvinist genius) knows what logic is and isn't..

Gordon Clarke (the Calvinist) knows....and Spock...(the Pelagian really) doesn't...

DUH!!!!

 

[saturneptune]

Luke wouldn't either. The reason is because Luke knows what logic is...and only idiots think that "Spock" represents something akin to reality about what "logic" is...........

Idiots, are people who don't know that Gordon C. Clarke (the Calvinist genius) knows what logic is and isn't..

Gordon Clarke (the Calvinist) knows....and Spock...(the Pelagian really) doesn't...

DUH!!!!

It is great you two are on the same page, kind of like soul mates.

 

[OldRegular]

Poor Old Regular is destroying hundreds of years' worth of respectable Calvinist argumentation right in front of our faces!!! I LOVE IT!!!:wavey:

Do go on O.R. Do go on.

Dude....G.H. Clarke is a genius....
G.H. Clarke was a Bible-believing Christian.
G.H. Clarke's text-books are still used the world-over in Philosophy courses to students of logic
G.H. Clarke is an Evangelical Calvinist and brilliant mind...in fact...he was a veritable child prodigy genius (as the youngest man to hold the prestigious position he held)

........And you just ROBBED LUKE of quoting him!! LOL.....

I love it.

Actually HOSS it is Clark and whether or not he was a genius is irrelevant!! And HOSS you are showing your behind again. Scripture establishes the Doctrines of Grace, not Irenaeus, Augustine, Calvin, Clark or even LUKE.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Actually HOSS it is Clark and whether or not he was a genius is irrelevant!! And HOSS you are showing your behind again. Scripture establishes the Doctrines of Grace, not Irenaeus, Augustine, Calvin, Clark or even LUKE.

The same scriptures that the churches had up until Augustine, and yet nobody taught this until him, or more particularly Calvin. Interesting. How do you account for that?

 

[Luke2427]

WOW!!!!!! you just used Gordon H. Clarke as a defeater for the validity of "logic" in Scriptural debate!!! PLEASE! remind me to throw that particular gem in Luke's face when next I debate Calvinism vs. Arminianism with him...He'll NEVER live it down!!!! :laugh::laugh:

I would LOVE nothing MORE than to consign G.H. Clarke (a brilliant Calvinist commentator and Scriptural exegete) into Luke's face as someone he is NO LONGER allowed to quote!!!! Give it time Luke...in short order, you won't be allowed to quote Warfield, Boettner, Owens, or....well, heck, ANYONE!!!!

Poor Old Regular is destroying hundreds of years' worth of respectable Calvinist argumentation right in front of our faces!!! I LOVE IT!!!:wavey:

Do go on O.R. Do go on.

Dude....G.H. Clarke is a genius....
G.H. Clarke was a Bible-believing Christian.
G.H. Clarke's text-books are still used the world-over in Philosophy courses to students of logic
G.H. Clarke is an Evangelical Calvinist and brilliant mind...in fact...he was a veritable child prodigy genius (as the youngest man to hold the prestigious position he held)

........And you just ROBBED LUKE of quoting him!! LOL.....

I love it.

Why can't I quote him?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That was to one up OR LUKE.Nothing more. Kind of childish if you ask me.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Why can't I quote him?

Of course you can...but not if O.R. had his way you wouldn't. O.R. essentially accused him of "blasphemy". Clarke is a great Scriptural exegete and brilliant mind. O.R. doesn't appreciate him. I find that to be un-believably short-sighted.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Actually HOSS it is Clark and whether or not he was a genius is irrelevant!!

You don't seem to know who Clarke is or to be familiar with his work O.R. he is a Fundamental Bible-Believing conservative Christian. You call him a blasphemer. This is un-canny.

Scripture establishes the Doctrines of Grace, not Irenaeus, Augustine, Calvin, Clark or even LUKE.

Uh........ok....what does this have to do with anything?

 

[OldRegular]

The same scriptures that the churches had up until Augustine, and yet nobody taught this until him, or more particularly Calvin. Interesting. How do you account for that?

You are mistaken. The Bible teaches the Doctrines of Grace.

 

[OldRegular]

Scripture establishes the Doctrines of Grace, not Irenaeus, Augustine, Calvin, Clark or even LUKE.

Uh........ok....what does this have to do with anything?

That is the impression one gets from all your responses HoSS: You apparently have the pathetic belief that the Scriptures have nothing to do with anything? Just what is your purpose on this Baptist Board?

 

[OldRegular]

Of course you can...but not if O.R. had his way you wouldn't. O.R. essentially accused him of "blasphemy". Clarke is a great Scriptural exegete and brilliant mind. O.R. doesn't appreciate him. I find that to be un-believably short-sighted.

HoSS,
Didn't your mother ever teach you

 

[OldRegular]

Of course you can...but not if O.R. had his way you wouldn't. O.R. essentially accused him of "blasphemy". Clarke is a great Scriptural exegete and brilliant mind. O.R. doesn't appreciate him. I find that to be un-believably short-sighted.

HoSS'

If you use the "quote" feature you won't have to depend on your memory. I did not "essentially accuse Clark of blasphemy", as you say. I said: It is my personal opinion that to say "logic is God' is not only stupid it is a blasphemous lie. That statement applies to any and all. i did not restrict it to Clark. I reproduce a part of my initial post for your edification!

The following quotation is taken from an article by Clark as presented on the web site: http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=16 This site was provided by a dear brother on this Forum. A worthwhile critique of Clark can be found at: http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/1997/05/gordon-clark/

Logic Is God

It is to be hoped that these remarks on the relation between God and truth will be seen as pertinent to the discussion of logic. In any case, the subject of logic can be more clearly introduced by one more Scriptural reference. The well-known prologue to John’s Gospel may be paraphrased, “In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God.... In logic was life and the life was the light of men.”

I have emphasized the paraphrase of John 1:1-4 by Clark. It is my personal opinion that to say "logic is God' is not only stupid it is a blasphemous lie.

Scripture tells us that "God is Love"!

1 John 4:16. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

But that is not all that Scripture tells us about God. Scripture tells us of the Self-Existence of God, of the the Holiness of God, of the Sovereignty of God, of the Omniscience of God, of the Omnipresence of God, the Wrath of God, the Grace of God, and much much more.

Scripture never tells us that "God is logic" or that "logic is God" any more than it tells us "Baal is God". For logicians or wanta-be logicians to attempt to define God or restrain God by their "logic box" is not only stupid it is blasphemous!