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Exhaustive Foreknowledge
- Thread starter Nolan Stengel
- Start date
Obfuscation by absurdity on display folks.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Obfuscation:
noun
noun: obfuscation; plural noun: obfuscations
the action of making something obscure, unclear, or unintelligible.
Absurdity:
noun
noun: absurdity; plural noun: absurdities
the quality or state of being ridiculous or wildly unreasonable.
You're accusing someone who honestly believes what they are posting, of purposely make something unclear...and in a manner that invites ridicule ( which believers are not to engage in ), which he is not doing.
Just because you do not agree with a post, does not give you leave to treat the person that you disagree with, badly.
Insulting others is contrary to the Lord's commands for those who name the name of Christ, Van.
Hi Dave G, I believe your post is contrary to the Lord's commands.
Here is the post you claim is not an absurd obfuscation: The Blessed Trinity themselves alone are eternal, so when and why would they now know all things already?
Did anyone say or suggest the Trinity is not eternal? Nope. So the phrase is for the purpose of obscuring the actual issue. The actual issue, my posted definition of "Inherit Omniscience."
Did I mistreat JesusFan? Nope, I tried to bring him back to reality and truth.
So, please Sir, explain "when and why would they (the Trinity Persons) now know all things already. It is an absurd word salad. You know it, I know it, and every reader of the post knows it.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Hi Van.
Continually insulting members by making comments that paint them as "obscuring things absurdly" is insulting. Doing so to people who do not share your view of things is contrary, again, to the Lord's commands regarding personal conduct for all believers.
Why not instead, try this?
" And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 and [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." ( 2 Timothy 2:24-26 )
Patience and gentleness work much better than comments such as " Obfuscation by absurdity on display folks."
Wouldn't you agree?
Va, since you hold some form of Open Theism, are are you confident that all prophecy will work out, or ho can be saved, as would not God in your understanding be willing to redo and replan on the fly based upon now seeing and knowing something different than what He had expected to happen?
Posting "against the person" posts like yours is obfuscation of actual doctrinal discussion. You didn't even address the word salad. Go figure.
Since you 'hold some form of Open Theism, are you confident that God will fulfill all His prophecies?
As usual, the rest of your post is a word salad presenting absurdity. No plan of God can be thwarted.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Van,
Respectfully, it seems that you post "against the person" every time you reply to something you disagree with.
For example, right here in this thread with post #142, as well as post #148 immediately above:
" As usual, the rest of your post is a word salad presenting absurdity."
Sir, there is a right way to address an error and a wrong way;
The first seeks to correct someone without meaning to cause offense ( "constructively" ), while the second doesn't ( "destructively" ).
The majority of those who post here, including myself, could use a lesson in this, IMO.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
That's because I was, once again, addressing how you appear to come across to those you disagree with.
Since the mods seem not to care about how people get treated here, I felt that someone should speak up on occasion...
Which leads to me asking you:
Has it ever occurred to you that how something is said is as equally important as what is being said?
My friend, as believers we are held, by the Lord, to a code of conduct because of who we are in Jesus Christ.
That doesn't include making comments that are condescending, disparaging or anything of the sort.
Now, since what I've pointed to in the posts above doesn't appear to have made any impact, I'll just have to wish you well and pray that the Lord gets through to you someday.
May God bless you sir.
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Yet another against the person post, devoid of any discussion of the topic. This is an attempt at obfuscation, to change the subject to me rather than the doctrine.
People who use logical fallacies such as against the person argumentation, probably know they are defending the indefensible using fallacy.
And here is the actual full quote: "As usual, the rest of your post is a word salad presenting absurdity. No plan of God can be thwarted."
Quoting part of the statement to leave out addressing the content reveals your heart. Here again is the word salad:
"...would not God in your understanding be willing to redo and replan on the fly based upon now seeing and knowing something different than what He had expected to happen? "
Good Grief, I answered this question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God fulfills His prophecies, He makes them happen. God does not predict what will happen by declaring a portion of a fixed future? That view is fiction found nowhere in scripture. It is held only by the unstudied.
Nolan Stengel
Member
Omniscience is the quality of having unlimited knowledge. That doesn't mean that creatures can't act freely. To say otherwise means that we are all acting in accordance to some kind of script which is exactly what Augustine taught because he was influenced by Aristotle.
Nolan Stengel
Member
We can only make sense of scripture as far as our finite minds will allow us to. I can't fully wrap my mind around the Trinity. I can't fully wrap my mind around the hypostatic union. I can't fully wrap my mind around God's sovereignty and man's free will. But do I believe all of those things? Yes, will all my heart and mind and soul. Anyone who claims to have these things figured out always has to use some kind of philosophical reasoning to make sense of it.
In no way am I dismissing what theologians have to say about these things and I can equally appreciate both Arminians and Calvinists. These guys have been able to understand scripture in ways that will remain valuable for generations to come.
I'd like to clarify my position a little bit. I'm not in any way saying that God doesn't know what is going to happen at any given moment. At the same time, I do see in scripture that He gives man the ability to make choices that can change their outcome. Some might still call me an open theist because they would say that God doesn't know X is going to happen because Y hasn't happened yet. Look, I can't understand God's mind and how the fabric of time as we know it functions in contrast to the infinite realm that He exists in. Back to my earlier point, God knows everything that is going to happen. He never needs to learn anything new. At the same time, humans are free to make choices. This is a mystery to me. I can try to come up with philosophical excuses like some people do with everything else but I am more comfortable with simply saying I don't know. Only God knows how that all works.
"Omniscience is the quality of having unlimited knowledge." This definition leaves out "about what?" Say I know all about another person. My knowledge of the person is unlimited. Or I know all about algebra. That does not suggest I know all about everything else. That is the fallacy of the opening definition. Rather "omniscience" refers to having maximal knowledge about a topic or subject.
1 John 3:20 NASB
that if our heart condemns us, that God is greater than our heart, and He knows all things.
The actual Greek reads "He knows all." Leaving us to determine "all about what?" Here the idea is God knows all about our heart - our character, attributes and thoughts. So our individual understanding of our depravity is overruled by God's acceptance of our "clear conscious." It is wrong for us to think our opinion overrules God's assessment!
In summary, there is absolutely no support anywhere in scripture for the premise that God possesses "exhaustive foreknowledge." So rather than attempting to claim absurdly, that His exhaustive foreknowledge does not fix the future to the foreseen future, the objective bible student should realize scripture does not support Infinite Omnipotence.
1 John 3:20 NASB
that if our heart condemns us, that God is greater than our heart, and He knows all things.
The actual Greek reads "He knows all." Leaving us to determine "all about what?" Here the idea is God knows all about our heart - our character, attributes and thoughts. So our individual understanding of our depravity is overruled by God's acceptance of our "clear conscious." It is wrong for us to think our opinion overrules God's assessment!
In summary, there is absolutely no support anywhere in scripture for the premise that God possesses "exhaustive foreknowledge." So rather than attempting to claim absurdly, that His exhaustive foreknowledge does not fix the future to the foreseen future, the objective bible student should realize scripture does not support Infinite Omnipotence.
John 16:30 NASB
“Now we know that You know all things, and that You have no need for anyone to question You; this is why we believe that You came forth from God.”
Here is another verse used to support that since Jesus is God, He knew everything imaginable. But once again the actual Greek reads "you know all" and leaves to the reader to interpret "all about what?" Here Jesus is no longer using figures of speech to explain His mission, He is using plain speech. So the actual idea is "you know all these things."
I could plow through all the verses translated "know all things" and show that the actual idea refers to whatever is contextually in view.
Once again, there is absolutely no actual support in scripture for exhaustive foreknowledge, only speculation based on vague translation.
“Now we know that You know all things, and that You have no need for anyone to question You; this is why we believe that You came forth from God.”
Here is another verse used to support that since Jesus is God, He knew everything imaginable. But once again the actual Greek reads "you know all" and leaves to the reader to interpret "all about what?" Here Jesus is no longer using figures of speech to explain His mission, He is using plain speech. So the actual idea is "you know all these things."
I could plow through all the verses translated "know all things" and show that the actual idea refers to whatever is contextually in view.
Once again, there is absolutely no actual support in scripture for exhaustive foreknowledge, only speculation based on vague translation.
We can act freely within the constraints imposed upon us by our sin natures, as there are things that we will never desire to do in and by ourselves