Explain This:

[annsni]

Show me a verse where faith doesn't come first.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Faith comes first.
Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God. Faith comes first
Call upon the name of the Lord, and thou shalt be saved. Faith comes first.

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)
Faith comes first.

Literally every verse concerning salvation requires a person to have faith first. First there is faith, then there is salvation. It is salvation 101; soteriology 101.
Another fact: faith is not a work. I trusted that we all agreed on that point.
Therefore I am not "doing" anything but trusting Christ when I receive him as my Saviour. I am receiving by faith the gift of eternal life. My child does nothing when I give him a gift. He receives it and that is all. No work is involved. There is faith involved but not work. He receives it by faith.

That is the teaching in John 1:12--For as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name.

Which were born, not of blood, [not because you have a Christian family--it does not run in the blood or genes] nor of the will of the flesh, [not of the works that you do in the flesh--think of Abraham in Romans 4:1,2], nor of the will of man [not by reformation--by man's own will, him wanting to enter (nothing about faith here) Barnes states that it refers to a man's own human power, but not "faith", but of God. (John 1:13)

Faith is mentioned in verse 12. Why would the author contradict himself by redefining it in verse 13. Then the passage wouldn't make sense. Faith never comes before salvation/regeneration which both happen at the same time. That is one of the flaws of Calvinism.

Let me reiterate something I did not say. I did not, and never have said:
We must do something before we are born again.
That sir, is a blatant false accusation.

No reformed believer believes that salvation comes before faith. However, regeneration comes before faith - and salvation. It is not a result of salvation but instead the cause of the faith that salvation comes by.

 

[psalms109:31]

Quite true (your last statement).
Faith comes as much from God, as does my faith when I put my key into the ignition of my car and exercise faith that it will start.
Faith is faith. It is confidence in the word or even object of another.
The object of my faith is Christ; how about yours?

Yes it is, praise Him

 

[psalms109:31]

Grace

Grace is around for everyone through Jesus Christ.

No one can receive this grace without the word that gives us the object of our faith.

So faith comes first then trust. Grace is always around for everyone. We are saved by grace through faith. No other way.

 

[DHK]

Grace is around for everyone through Jesus Christ.

No one can receive this grace without the word that gives us the object of our faith.

So faith comes first then trust. Grace is always around for everyone. We are saved by grace through faith. No other way.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)

Absolutely.

 

[Luke2427]

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)

Absolutely.

Yes, the word of God is the instrument that God uses to make alive SO THAT one can believe and be saved as I have shown from Scripture to you in a previous post.

 

[glfredrick]

Yes, the word of God is the instrument that God uses to make alive SO THAT one can believe and be saved as I have shown from Scripture to you in a previous post.

I would humbly suggest that it is not the Word, but the Holy Spirit who uses the Word to convince and convict that, "This is truth, hear it."

 

[DHK]

Yes, the word of God is the instrument that God uses to make alive SO THAT one can believe and be saved as I have shown from Scripture to you in a previous post.

I have never disagreed with that.
Regeneration and salvation take place at the same time.
Faith precedes that, and is not a gift from God, for God does not give spiritual gifts to dead or unsaved men. This is bordering on heresy IMO.
What is the Holy Spirit for?

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)

He comes to reprove or convict the world of sin. That does not mean regeneration. It is conviction. A person is not regenerated before he is saved. He is convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit. See Acts 2. See also Acts 7 where they refused the conviction of the Holy Spirit and stoned Stephen instead.

The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God. That is what brings the New Birth, as is verified by 1Peter 1:23 coupled with John 3:5. The two agencies needed in the new birth are the word of God and the Holy Spirit. That is what is necessary for the new birth/salvation. They are one and the same thing. When I am regenerated I am saved. Christ gives me a new heart--he regenerates me and gives me eternal life. I am saved for all eternity and given forgiveness of sins. It happens all at the same time.

It happens when one puts their saving faith in the shed blood of Christ.
Two things are required. Man's choice or faith to believe.
That belief must be in the message of the Word of God presented to him--the gospel, so that he can understand it.
The Holy Spirit must convict him of sin. Without conviction of sin there can be no salvation. In this way salvation is all of God. But faith must precede salvation. The object of a man's faith is Christ and his atoning work. The agency is God's Word and the Holy Spirit working through it.

 

[preacher4truth]

How are these verses showing faith is first?

The verses are an extension of Grace to sinners. Thus, grace comes first.

It always has.

 

[quantumfaith]

There is no such thing as faith unless there is an object in which to place that faith first. Otherwise it is no different than the faith in faith doctrine of Word-faith.

Grace comes first, or there is no reason for faith. God makes the move, not us.

Not being snarky here, but has anyone denied that God's grace came first. I thought the question was about regeneration.

Yes, God extended grace first. But man must also "extend" faith and belief. That is simply what we non-cals believe. A mathematical "and". To be valid, both sides of the statement must be true. (A set intersection)

 

[quantumfaith]

I would humbly suggest that it is not the Word, but the Holy Spirit who uses the Word to convince and convict that, "This is truth, hear it."

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[DHK]

How are these verses showing faith is first?

The verses are an extension of Grace to sinners. Thus, grace comes first.

It always has.

You are speaking of general grace.
God makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
He makes the sun to shine upon the just and the unjust alike.
Yes, God's grace abounds to us all.

When one considers salvation:
By grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. Salvation is the gift of God, not of works.

The grace here is the work of Christ on the cross.
The faith is your faith.
Concerning salvation it is not of yourself; not of works. It is a gift to be obtained by faith, not of works.

Faith precedes salvation wrought by the grace of God.
If one does not put their faith in God's grace offered at the cross of Christ, then he has nothing. The wrath of God abides on him always.

 

[glfredrick]

DHK, Arminians have invented a grace called "previnient grace" to explain how it is that those dead in their sin and trespasses can respond to God. God grants this "small measure of grace" to those who He sees wish to respond to His effectual call.

At the end of the day, that is not far removed from the Reformed position, for both call for God's grace before any response to God, and both recognize that God does the initial work of salvation. But, because previnient grace is not well understood by those who actually hold that as their theology (I've not seen a single Arminian introduce or mention previnient grace on this board since I've been here) there is often a case made that humans come to God purely on their own faith effort.

I've posted the article of faith that describes the Arminian position a good number of times in the past several days, but so far no Arminian will engage that point, largely I imagine, because it shoots holes in their arguments, which end up as Pelagian rather than true Arminian when the human-centered aspect is the focus.

 

[jbh28]

Show me a verse where faith doesn't come first.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Faith comes first.
Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God. Faith comes first
Call upon the name of the Lord, and thou shalt be saved. Faith comes first.

Nothing about regeneration, but nice try. Why don't you show me a verses that says faith does precede. All those verses say is faith is required for salvation, something I have never denied.

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)
Faith comes first.

Nothing about regeneration

Literally every verse concerning salvation requires a person to have faith first. First there is faith, then there is salvation. It is salvation 101; soteriology 101.

nothing about regeneration. Faith doesn't come before salvation, it is part of salvation. You are not saved if you don't have faith. I agree totally with that. We are talking about faith and regeneration.

Another fact: faith is not a work. I trusted that we all agreed on that point.

yes

Therefore I am not "doing" anything but trusting Christ when I receive him as my Saviour. I am receiving by faith the gift of eternal life. My child does nothing when I give him a gift. He receives it and that is all. No work is involved. There is faith involved but not work. He receives it by faith.

I'm not denying faith for salvation.

That is the teaching in John 1:12--For as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name.

Yes, all those that have received Christ have the right, privilege, power(authority)... to become the sons of God.

Which were born, not of blood, [not because you have a Christian family--it does not run in the blood or genes] nor of the will of the flesh, [not of the works that you do in the flesh--think of Abraham in Romans 4:1,2], nor of the will of man [not by reformation--by man's own will, him wanting to enter (nothing about faith here) Barnes states that it refers to a man's own human power, but not "faith", but of God. (John 1:13)

So you just remove the very thing you are referencing here. It says we are born not of the will of man. I agree with the first portions. We are not regenerated because of the family we are in, the works we do, or the will of man, but of the will of God. This would include faith unless you have something that says otherwise in the passage.

Faith is mentioned in verse 12. Why would the author contradict himself by redefining it in verse 13. Then the passage wouldn't make sense. Faith never comes before salvation/regeneration which both happen at the same time. That is one of the flaws of Calvinism.

And faith happens at he same time. Salvation is the whole. It includes faith. It includes regeneration. It includes justification. Regeneration, faith and justification are all part of salvation. They all happen chronologically at the same time.

Let me reiterate something I did not say. I did not, and never have said:
We must do something before we are born again.
That sir, is a blatant false accusation.

Do something for works, no you did not. If I said you did I didn't mean to. But you do say that you have to have faith by the will of man before one is regenerated, which contradicts John 1:13.

so, is faith required for salvation? YES
Is regeneration required for salvation? YES

 

[webdog]

Nothing about regeneration, but nice try. Why don't you show me a verses that says faith does precede. All those verses say is faith is required for salvation, something I have never denied.

Spiritual life is salvation. You don't see it because you wrongly understand you cannot have one without the other.

 

[jbh28]

Spiritual life is salvation. You don't see it because you wrongly understand you cannot have one without the other.

webdog, what part of...

And faith happens at he same time. Salvation is the whole. It includes faith. It includes regeneration. It includes justification. Regeneration, faith and justification are all part of salvation. They all happen chronologically at the same time.

did you not understand?

I have never said that one can be regenerate and not be saved. In fact on numerous times I have stated that you cannot be regenerate without being saved.

 

[glfredrick]

webdog, what part of...
did you not understand?

I have never said that one can be regenerate and not be saved. In fact on numerous times I have stated that you cannot be regenerate without being saved.

Rather shoots webdog's argument, doesn't it?

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith

First of all faith is given to us through the words of Jesus and words about Him.

We have to believe (trust) Jesus to accept it.

It is His word that washes us, cleans us and regenenerates us, because Jesus word is Spirit and life. Without His word we are dead man.

We are saved not by our will, but the will of God to save believers those who trust in His Son. Without the word we have no life within us.

For me to believe someone I have to first trust him and then it is his job to get me to believe.

Trust is not work according to God.

 

[quantumfaith]

First of all faith is given to us through the words of Jesus and words about Him.

We have to believe (trust) Jesus to accept it.

It is His word that washes us, cleans us and regenenerates us, because Jesus word is Spirit and life. Without His word we are dead man.

We are saved not by our will, but the will of God to save believers those who trust in His Son. Without the word we have no life within us.


For me to believe someone I have to first trust him and then it is his job to get me to believe.

Trust is not work according to God.

Great one! :thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

webdog, what part of...
did you not understand?

I have never said that one can be regenerate and not be saved. In fact on numerous times I have stated that you cannot be regenerate without being saved.

Maybe you should have drawn it out in crayons.

It was as plain as day and easy to see.

Hmmmm.

 

[Luke2427]

Spiritual life is salvation. You don't see it because you wrongly understand you cannot have one without the other.

You cannot support this with scripture.

Spiritual birth inevitably leads TO salvation- they are inextricably linked. That is all the Bible teaches.

You CANNOT support biblically this idea that one is nothing more than a synonym for the other.

Yet we have shown you from Scripture that spiritual life MUST precede faith and faith MUST precede full conversion.

The only sense in which salvation and regeneration are the same thing: regeneration is as good as salvation because it will surely end in salvation. None who are born of God will fail to believe. All born of God will be in heaven.