Exposing False teaching about Jesus Christ !

[convicted1]

Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. — Matthew 12:31

Evasion!! Rabbit trail!! Oops...

 

[convicted1]

I read where you denied that Christ death saved those He died for and that is a lie!

Here's a simple question for you...


Were you born saved? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice...

 

[Protestant]

I agree with him, and neither one of us are saying Christ's death was ineffective. We're just pointing out that the death alone is not the stopping point. It also took His resurrection and ascension to complete our salvation.

PT, what did Christ's death 'effect'?

In what way did Christ's resurrection and ascension 'complete' our salvation?

 

[Protestant]

Do you believe that those Christ died for and rose again , are still in their sins before they believe ? Yes or No ?

YES

How do I know that to be true?

I was a willing adherent of Satan, my master.

Holiness and the love of Christ was not in the least bit a part of my heart's desire.

It wasn't until the wonder-working power of the blood of Christ was personally applied by the Holy Spirit that I was resurrected from the dead and made alive in Christ.

Were you born dead in your sins and trespasses?

Yes or no?

If you say 'yes', you refute your own hypothesis.

But if you say, 'no', you place yourself in the company of the Roman Catholic Goddess, the Virgin Mary, who, according to Roman Catholic mythology, was the recipient of an 'Immaculate Conception.'

 

[savedbymercy]

YES

How do I know that to be true?

I was a willing adherent of Satan, my master.

Holiness and the love of Christ was not in the least bit a part of my heart's desire.

It wasn't until the wonder-working power of the blood of Christ was personally applied by the Holy Spirit that I was resurrected from the dead and made alive in Christ.

Were you born dead in your sins and trespasses?

Yes or no?

If you say 'yes', you refute your own hypothesis.

But if you say, 'no', you place yourself in the company of the Roman Catholic Goddess, the Virgin Mary, who, according to Roman Catholic mythology, was the recipient of an 'Immaculate Conception.'

Let me clarify something, when I say in their sins, I mean are they in the condemnation of their sins before God? Are they under God's condemnation?

 

[savedbymercy]

PT, what did Christ's death 'effect'?

In what way did Christ's resurrection and ascension 'complete' our salvation?

Christ's death effected Salvation for those He died, it effected Salvation from the Penalty, Power and Soon Presence of sin ! 1Peter 2:24 !

 

[PreachTony]

PT, what did Christ's death 'effect'?

In what way did Christ's resurrection and ascension 'complete' our salvation?

His death is the atonement for us. No one is refuting that. But there has to be a reason that Paul, inspired of God, writes that our faith is in vain if Christ be not risen from the dead. Why is it the outward symbol of our faith is a representation of the burial and resurrection and not the crucifixion?

Using the OT sacrifices as a type and shadow of Christ's sacrifice, you have to note that no other sacrificial lamb prior to Jesus was able to pick back up its life after it had been slain. Christ did. Now, our Lord sits at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for us. John on Patmos saw in his vision a glorified Christ who stated that He held the keys of death and hell. It has always been my understanding that the resurrection of Christ accomplished that for us.

 

[convicted1]

His death is the atonement for us. No one is refuting that. But there has to be a reason that Paul, inspired of God, writes that our faith is in vain if Christ be not risen from the dead. Why is it the outward symbol of our faith is a representation of the burial and resurrection and not the crucifixion?

Using the OT sacrifices as a type and shadow of Christ's sacrifice, you have to note that no other sacrificial lamb prior to Jesus was able to pick back up its life after it had been slain. Christ did. Now, our Lord sits at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for us. John on Patmos saw in his vision a glorified Christ who stated that He held the keys of death and hell. It has always been my understanding that the resurrection of Christ accomplished that for us.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Protestant]

Let me clarify something, when I say in their sins, I mean are they in the condemnation of their sins before God? Are they under God's condemnation?

I was an unbeliever until regeneration, and as such I was under God's condemnation:

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I was also under God's wrath:

he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Had I not been chosen for salvation by the Father before the foundation of the world; and had Christ not died as full payment for my sin debt and rose for my justification; and had the Holy Spirit not regenerated me, as well as bestow all spiritual gifts necessary to attain glorification, I would still be dead in my sins, on the broad road to destruction.

I give all glory for my salvation to the God of ALL grace.

I contributed not one whit to my salvation.

Salvation is ALL of the Lord, who loved me first and worketh in me both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

 

[savedbymercy]

I was an unbeliever until regeneration, and as such I was under God's condemnation:

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I was also under God's wrath:

he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Had I not been chosen for salvation by the Father before the foundation of the world; and had Christ not died as full payment for my sin debt and rose for my justification; and had the Holy Spirit not regenerated me, as well as bestow all spiritual gifts necessary to attain glorification, I would still be dead in my sins, on the broad road to destruction.

I give all glory for my salvation to the God of ALL grace.

I contributed not one whit to my salvation.

Salvation is ALL of the Lord, who loved me first and worketh in me both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

That's the difference between the Christ I know and believe in and the one you believe in ! Those whom my Christ died for, even while we were enemies /unbelievers , sinful we were reconciled to God by His Death, we were not under Gods Wrath, but reconciled Rom 5:10 ! It appears that the christ you believe in, his death did not satisfy Gods Law and Justice for you!

 

[Protestant]

His death is the atonement for us. No one is refuting that. But there has to be a reason that Paul, inspired of God, writes that our faith is in vain if Christ be not risen from the dead. Why is it the outward symbol of our faith is a representation of the burial and resurrection and not the crucifixion?

PT, you state, "His death is the atonement for us."

Who is the 'us'?

The reason I ask is that I was under the distinct impression you believe Scripture teaches Christ died universally for every person who ever lived.

If that is the case, then Christ's death did not actually atone because there are millions upon millions who have already died in their sins.

Something was lacking in His atonement if He did not achieve the alleged goal of universal atonement.

Now if you say that His atonement was only effective toward those who believe then you have added something outside Himself which makes His atonement efficacious.

Christ's sinless active and passive obedience + unrighteous sinful man's faith = actual atonement.

By asserting the above statement to be true you (and many others on this Board) have introduced an atonement which does not actually atone unless sinful man contributes his faith.

Thus, Christ's atonement is only a possible atonement, dependent on sinful man's contribution of faith.

Keeping your original statement in mind, "His death is the atonement for us" should really be stated as "His death is the possible atonement for us."

WE, on the other hand, believe Scriptures teach a definite atonement.

By 'definite' we mean Christ shed His blood specifically and definitely for those given Him by the Father (as stated in John 17).

It is for those same Elect that Christ prays forgiveness while on the cross.

It is those for whom He makes atonement.

The Father has been and will continue to answer Christ's prayer until the last Elect is brought into the Kingdom of God....for the Lord knows those who are His.

Any thoughts?

Using the OT sacrifices as a type and shadow of Christ's sacrifice, you have to note that no other sacrificial lamb prior to Jesus was able to pick back up its life after it had been slain. Christ did. Now, our Lord sits at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for us. John on Patmos saw in his vision a glorified Christ who stated that He held the keys of death and hell. It has always been my understanding that the resurrection of Christ accomplished that for us.

The OT sacrifices were made for Israel, the Elect nation, only.

Similarly, Christ's sacrifice was made for the Elect people of God -- spiritual Israel -- only.

Christ's sacrifice was a substitutionary sacrifice, meaning Christ died a penal death in the stead of His people, spiritual Israel.

By His sinless active and passive obedience (both during His lifetime and crucifixion), Christ made perfect satisfaction to God's justice.

Satisfaction was made on behalf of those given Him by the Father.

Since Christ satisfied completely (propitiated) the justice of God by taking the just punishment due the Elect upon Himself, it is impossible the Elect will experience the second death.

Therefore, those who will experience the second death are those for whom Christ did NOT make atonement or satisfaction.

Thus, Christ did not die for the sins of every person who ever lived.

Any thoughts?

 

[Protestant]

That's the difference between the Christ I know and believe in and the one you believe in ! Those whom my Christ died for, even while we were enemies /unbelievers , sinful we were reconciled to God by His Death, we were not under Gods Wrath, but reconciled Rom 5:10 ! It appears that the christ you believe in, his death did not satisfy Gods Law and Justice for you!

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Please take a moment and reflect on the progression of Paul's teaching.

Verse 8: Incredibly, Christ died for sinners who hated Him.

Verse 9: Those sinners for whom He died will be justified because His blood actually saves those for whom it was shed.

Verse 10: Here Paul's argument begins with the major and leads to the minor.....If Christ, by His death, made (legal) reconciliation between God and His enemies, how is it possible we, who have now actually, experientially been reconciled will not achieve salvation by virtue of His resurrection?

Verse 11: Now that we have actually, experientially received the spiritual benefits of the atonement we experience unsurpassed joy in God our Father.

 

[savedbymercy]

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Please take a moment and reflect on the progression of Paul's teaching.

Verse 8: Incredibly, Christ died for sinners who hated Him.

Verse 9: Those sinners for whom He died will be justified because His blood actually saves those for whom it was shed.

Verse 10: Here Paul's argument begins with the major and leads to the minor.....If Christ, by His death, made (legal) reconciliation between God and His enemies, how is it possible we, who have now actually, experientially been reconciled will not achieve salvation by virtue of His resurrection?

Verse 11: Now that we have actually, experientially received the spiritual benefits of the atonement we experience unsurpassed joy in God our Father.

Did you understand my post ? Review it with me and show me you understand it!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

I will close this thread sometime after 1130pm (Pacific Time).

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.