Exposing the roots of the Arizona immigration law

[Dragoon68]

It is different. One is you are walking down the street minding your own business and Leo's require your papers just because they feel like targeting you.

The other is you are using a vehicle normally targeted by terrorist. You are using a companies product and they can require you to reveal something about yourself in order to do so.

And note this is always. And I mean always how it starts. Germany 1934. People said the same thing about reporting to Nazi officials their papers. It wasn't long before Jews had to have yellow stars on their outer garments and people were cool with for the very same reason you are cool with having to report your "papers" to Leo under any circumstance. It just shows you've lost the consept of why and how this country was formed. Liberty! People are to be left to their own devices unless they break the law. The fact is over the years our country has become more legislated that like a frog in boiling water that is gradually raised in temperature it never jumps out until its finally boilled to death. However, do it all at once and it will jump out. For us it started in 1912 with the first income tax. Then progressed in the 1930 with FDR's Neal Deal and got worse with Johnson's great society. And every years since more laws encacted slowly limiting people's liberty. Now we are just a hop, skip, and a jump away from brown shirts harrassing the elderly, limiting what you can and cannot purchase, people that are suspect by nothing other than how they look are subject to unwarrented searches. And discent is dealt with by sending people to labor camps. Note most schools read the book 1984 as a view into the extreme of socialism however people don't realize George Orwell was a communist and his books animal farm and 1984 was how he saw the development of the capitalistic world. In our case he seems to be prophetic. and all they while you chant its not a real issue because I'm more than happy to give up liberty so that I can obtain more security. Our great country wasn't based on that. It was based on a man providing for himself and being self reliant for everything to include his own security thats why we have the second amendment! Yet no more. We seem to be going down the age old path that ends in tyranny!

My point had more to do with the inconvenience that we already experience in just traveling around the country when doing absolutely nothing suspicious as compared to someone who is obviously suspicious being asked to identify themselves. I wish neither were required but, apparently, because of many factors including our own individual inability to assist with the enforcement of law we've come to the point that it seems to be necessary. I think you hit very nicely on that point in the last couple of sentences regarding self reliance. There was a time when we would have been expected to and allowed to provide for our own security when traveling. I'm old enough to remember it! A ticket was all you needed and it didn't even need your name. We let the 1970's hi-jackers change that for us! Now we are rendered helpless by the very rules designed to protect us. Likewise, local residents in border states are unable to protect themselves and their federal government hasn't done the job either so they've called upon their State to help them with the problem. Good for them!

 

[targus]

Thinkingstuff, you should stop palying amateur lawyer.

Contract law defintions don't apply here.

You are over your head and sounding more and more silly.

 

[billwald]

>of a person involved in a lawful contact

A police officer can lawfully say "good morning." If the person responds and the officer thinks he has a Mexican accent then he can have a reasonable suspicion.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinkingstuff, you should stop palying amateur lawyer.

Contract law defintions don't apply here.

You are over your head and sounding more and more silly.

Maybe so Targus but how many times has the written law been interpreted in such a way as to validate a different meaning? Enough that I may not be as far off as you think. BTW I'm not an attorney and am only familiar with contract law and its applications. However, I know enough of history to see this bill as a threat. How many inocuous bills have been redefined to become threatening or given more teeth? Enough I assure you.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

>of a person involved in a lawful contact

A police officer can lawfully say "good morning." If the person responds and the officer thinks he has a Mexican accent then he can have a reasonable suspicion.

Exactly and that is an issue of liberty.

 

[targus]

Exactly and that is an issue of liberty.

You need to remember who you are talking to.

I wouldn't put much stock in billwald's posts.

He's usually pretty far out there.

 

[poncho]

So you say you want to curb illegal immigration.

Here's a suggestion. End the failed "war on drugs".

So you say you'd like to see civil liberties restored.

Here's a suggestion. End the failed "war on drugs".

So you say you'd like to see less gang violence in our streets.

Here's a suggestion. End the failed "war on drugs".

So you say you'd like to protect the second amendment.

Here's a suggestion. End the failed "war on drugs".

So you say you'd like a smaller government.

Here's a suggestion. End the failed "war on drugs".

So you'd say you'd like to see less racism in this country.

Here's a suggestion. End the failed "war on drugs".

So you say what's the "war on drugs" got to do with all this? It's simple. It lies right next to the roots of all these "other" problems exacerbating them all.

If we were really into "exposing roots" here we'd already know and admit this, but . . .

We aren't really into "exposing the root" of anything at all here, instead what we're really into, what we're really interested in doing here is wasting time and energy by shaking some leaves and making some noise.

A tree cannot be felled by the shaking of it's leaves.

And that's a proven scientific fact!

 

[Jason Garrett]

The immigration issue is a secondary offense. It will only be addressed by Officers and Deputies AFTER they have contacted an individual for a primary offense (traffic violation or criminal statute violation). After the contact is made one of the first things we cops do is ask for ID. If none can be provided, then we start down the road of verification of legal status if need be. That's how this law will work. It's nothing we don't already do. The only difference is we now have the responsibility to detain and hand over to ICE. Don't believe the rhetoric from the left my friend because it's flat out not true.

 

[Dragoon68]

The immigration issue is a secondary offense. It will only be addressed by Officers and Deputies AFTER they have contacted an individual for a primary offense (traffic violation or criminal statute violation). After the contact is made one of the first things we cops do is ask for ID. If none can be provided, then we start down the road of verification of legal status if need be. That's how this law will work. It's nothing we don't already do. The only difference is we now have the responsibility to detain and hand over to ICE. Don't believe the rhetoric from the left my friend because it's flat out not true.

It's nice to get these kinds of comments from people actually involved in the business at hand!

As I view it the law really just requires officers in Arizona to help enforce our national immigration law in the course of enforcing other laws.

It is no different than the long standing provisions to detain a suspect in one jurisdiction for a crime committed in another until that person can be handed over to the responsible jurisdiction.

It ought to be that way everywhere! A person that is the USA illegally is certainly in the State illegally. That's just plain and simple to me!

Hats off to Arizona for doing something about the problem. Hopefully other States will have similar courage to act accordingly.

 

[poncho]

It gives us all something to cheer for or sneer at alright but it doesn't address the real problem.

But that's typical of course. Treat the symptoms of failed policies so's it looks like you mean business and doing something. Makes some folks happy and some folks mad while doing nothing to actually fix things.

 

[Dragoon68]

It gives us all something to cheer for or sneer at alright but it doesn't address the real problem.

But that's typical of course. Treat the symptoms of failed policies so's it looks like you mean business and doing something. Makes some folks happy and some folks mad while doing nothing to actually fix things.

What are your specific ideas to address the "real" problem?

 

[Jason Garrett]

Poncio, I COMPLETELY agree with you. The first resolution to this ever increasing problem is securing the borders.

Back in the mid 90's I served in an Infantry Battalion on the DMZ in the ROK. Let me tell you, NNE got across the DMZ unless they were let across. This is what our borders should be and should represent. I propose pulling our active duty military home from this war that has gone on too long and establish Army Posts along the land borders and securing them. Enough of the symbolic border patrol.

Once we have effectively secured our borders we can work on the issue of the illegals that are already here. I would propose granting temporary amnesty for those illegals who are not criminals and putting them on a patch to citizenship. The criminals should simply be deported and, considering our newly secured borders, wouldn't threaten a return.

 

[Dragoon68]

... Back in the mid 90's I served in an Infantry Battalion on the DMZ in the ROK. Let me tell you, NNE got across the DMZ unless they were let across. This is what our borders should be and should represent. I propose pulling our active duty military home from this war that has gone on too long and establish Army Posts along the land borders and securing them. Enough of the symbolic border patrol. ...

I like the idea of putting our Army to the task of defending our nation wherever and however that may be needed. As far as I'm concerned, that could include stepping in to help with the serious lack of effective border security especially between the USA and Mexico. Long term, however, I have concern about making this a regular duty of the military. Such things have a way of detracting from the main focus of war fighting and it is difficult for most troops to transition between a lethal and non-lethal response both in doctrine and in mission.

Also, people have a general and legitimate fear of having our military involved in what is mostly considered a civilian law enforcement problem. Just consider the reaction to the Arizona law and imagine the outcry over moving federal military forces into the business!

I do think that if we were to use the military - meaning federal forces - for this purpose, even short term, we should give them the necessary authority to perform the duty. That means we should legislate the appropriate exceptions to the law. They should not be there just to drive around, observe, and report. They should have the appropriate arrest powers and be tasked to aggressively pursue their assignment within a limited border jurisdiction. There's a slim chance of that happening! Yet there's nothing worse than getting sent on a mission with one or two arms tied behind your back.

I think the ability of civilian law enforcement to handle the problem alone is debatable. We could beef up the US Border Patrol but just as we fear a military with law enforcement powers we also should fear a law enforcement agency with military powers.

We do need to do something better to solve the problem or it will continue to escalate to the point of no return. I think everything should be on the table but it needs to be thought out very carefully. Once decisions are made the plan needs to be executed with vigor and determination and without endless squabbling and criticism. We'd also have to be realistic and prepared for the inevitable mistakes that could happen. I think those of us that have performed military and law enforcement duties understand how difficult it can be to have zero errors in judgment and action. But we live in a world that will nail you at the slightest opportunity without respect for the difficulty of what they expect you to do at great personal risk.

I don't trust the present powers that be in the White House or Congress to handle this problem. They don't have what it takes in my opinion! I don't have confidence that there's enough wisdom in the entire bunch to even intelligently discuss the problem much less the possible solutions. They'd have to have the courage to stand up to the whining and screaming of advocates for acceptance of illegal immigration. Our government can't even control kids in school these days and some don't even seem to understand we live in America - not Mexico - where displaying an American flag should always be okay. Regardless, we can't give up and diligent prayer that wisdom will somehow fall upon this bunch is much needed.

 

[Jason Garrett]

Frankly, I don't trust ANY of the powers that be to handle the problem. Bush did absolutely NOTHING for 8 years about, well, anything except the way, Clinton did nothing, Bush before him and Reagan before him. Apparently, this issue of illegla immigration is only an issue to us common folk.

With all of the drug cartel activity along the border now, there will come a day when full Infantry platoons will be need to simply keep the peace down there, let alone enforce immigration policy. These cartels are armed to the teeth and somewhat tactically proficient. Civilian law enforcement (both Federal and local) will never be able to handle what is coming.

 

[Dragoon68]

... With all of the drug cartel activity along the border now, there will come a day when full Infantry platoons will be need to simply keep the peace down there, let alone enforce immigration policy. These cartels are armed to the teeth and somewhat tactically proficient. Civilian law enforcement (both Federal and local) will never be able to handle what is coming.

If you're correct - and I give it a high probability that you are - then we will need a long term border security force with military capability and laws to enable its application. I think it will come only after we have numerous failures and tragedies. It will be too little too late and another failure of our government to exercise its primary duty on our behalf. It will be preceded by a waste of money on frivolous legalistic responses addressed at everyone except those who are the real problem. Just as we're jumping on Arizona right now for doing something verses nothing we will jump on our own citizens as they react to the problem.

 

[Jason Garrett]

Recently a Sheriff's Deputy in Arizona (forgive me, I forget the county) was attacked by a group of smugglers armed with semi-automatic rifles (e.g. M4 carbines, AK's, or similar). Armed like that civilian LE doesn't stand a chance. This will increase in severity and regularity, unfortunately.

 

[poncho]

What are your specific ideas to address the "real" problem?

The first step would be to identify the "real" problem so we aren't just running around sticking our fingers in the dam praying that it won't break.

I've been saying this for a long time now and you folks just seem to want to keep looking the other way but I'll say it again.

The heart of most of our problems in this country today can be directly or indirectly atributed to, globalization.

What is globalization?

"Globalization has been the defining feature of the late twentieth-century, exemplified by sharply increased trade in goods, inter-connected financial markets and large-scale international migration. Globalization is defined by cross-border connectivity, including porous borders, which serve to expedite flows of goods while at the same time increase the level of immigration – both legal and illegal." Paul A. Harris, PhD


We don't have "porous borders" by mistake or ineptitude or even lack of laws or law enforcement we have them by design. America is being destroyed by design. And it will continue to be until all of us wake up to the reality of it and end it.

Former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm explains how the process of destroying America works. “Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country,” he says. “History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual.”

The most effective weapon in this process of destruction, Lamm explains, is multiculturalism — the demand that all arriving people retain their culture at the expense of the prevailing culture. “Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together,” writes Benjamin Schwarz.

“In modern times multiculturalism is instituted from the top down as an elitist ruling class tool used to play one or more racial or ethnic groups against another,” writes Louis Beam.

“The ensuing cultural melee serves the political designs, economic goals and power needs of elitist rulers and their sponsors. This technique was developed by Marxist ideologues who used multiculturalism in Russia to divide and conquer resistance to the institution of a communist state…. The same internationalist cabals who sponsored Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin as the multicultural leaders of the Soviet state from their banking houses in New York, similarly sponsor the multicultural leaders of the United States, Canada, and Europe today.”

Beam explains how an interlocking network of foundations such as Ford and Carnegie, international banking empires such as Rockefeller and Rothschild, and government agencies firmly in their control work in tandem with corporate media outlets such as the New York Times, CBS, and Hollywood, to promote, foster, and institute multiculturalism.

SOURCE

There I exposed the root of illegal immigration for you what you do now is entirely up to you. You can either stand up to it or lay down for it.

Okay I've said my piece now for those of you who want to get back to arguing about whether or not new laws, more police power, bigger government will help or, if it's the fault of liberal's or conservative's or which party would be the best bet to "fix" it then by all means get right back to it and forget all I've said here.

But know this when you lay down for it, and this country does fall and it's fixin too it's just as much your fault for looking the other way and putting your faith in globalists and their bought and paid for political flunkies as it is those who destroyed us.

 

[poncho]

Frankly, I don't trust ANY of the powers that be to handle the problem. Bush did absolutely NOTHING for 8 years about, well, anything except the way, Clinton did nothing, Bush before him and Reagan before him. Apparently, this issue of illegla immigration is only an issue to us common folk.

With all of the drug cartel activity along the border now, there will come a day when full Infantry platoons will be need to simply keep the peace down there, let alone enforce immigration policy. These cartels are armed to the teeth and somewhat tactically proficient. Civilian law enforcement (both Federal and local) will never be able to handle what is coming.

It's not as if we didn't know prohibition provides both the opportunity and catalyst for the formation of cartels, or criminal gangs, same thing. Yet we act all suprised that we have such powerful and widespread gang violence. What did we expect when we declared "war on drugs"? That somehow prohibition would work to make things better after we already proved it doesn't? DUH!

And with the formation of gangs comes gang violence and warfare. Not to mention wholesale coruption of the police, military and government.

Didn't we learn anything from Al Capone??? From our own history???

End the failed "war on drugs". We don't don't need to declare another war or escalate the one we're already in we need to come to our senses!

End the failed "war on drugs" already more and bigger stupidity isn't the answer. Common sense on the other hand might just work. Hey ya never know till ya try it. Right?

 

[Dragoon68]

The first step would be to identify the "real" problem so we aren't just running around sticking our fingers in the dam praying that it won't break. ...

Okay, so what exactly do you propose be done about the "real" problem. Boil it down into a few simple proposals in your own words.

It's a serious question, Poncho, not a critique of the unknown.

 

[poncho]

Okay, so what exactly do you propose be done about the "real" problem. Boil it down into a few simple proposals in your own words.

It's a serious question, Poncho, not a critique of the unknown.

Well, for one thing let's end the failed "war on drugs". Not only has it been a huge failure it's been a huge disasterous failure. Giving us just the opposite of what it promised. Since we declared this "war" we've gotten more drugs and more powerful drugs, more gangs, more gang violence. These gangs have increased their wealth and power during this "war" and are able to buy things like police officers, drug enforcement officers, military personnel and even government officials! It's no different than the prohibition of the 20's and 30's when Al Capone had the people who were there to stop him in his pocket.

I've already give you a few reasons why we should end this failed policy of prohibiton. Shall I give you more?

Then there's globalization. Like I said big D first thing we need to do about it is wake up and realize the magnitude of this threat and who's actually behind it. Before we can even make a proposal to do something about it.

Other wise we might as well be chasing shadows around in circles while the noose is being drawn ever tighter around our necks.