quantumfaith
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Eye Opening Music Education
- Thread starter Jordan Kurecki
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Bub, the Bible does not talk about a beat at all. And the melody can feed the flesh as much as anything else. I have sat through these classes even in college and listened to this garbage. I was taught this stuff when I was a kid right along with we were all going to end up with the mark of the beast on us.
This idea that on kind of a beat is sinful and another kind is not is a stretch of both scripture and logic. Creating a long argument and making videos does nothing to provide any more truth to this non sense.
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
Watched the first three videos under the rhythm of rock category. I'll have to watch the other one on history of rhythm later, I don't have the patience right now.
The videos I just finished watching are more or less the arguments I grew up with, just pretty much collected together and rationalized.
I do have training in music theory and playing an instrument--I'm a pianist and have played with a worship team a bit, so I understood the illustrations.
The arguments presented are built on the assumption that back beats and "beat anticipation" is bad. With not much explanation for this other than it's associated with an immoral pop culture and it encourages movements that are assumed, on the speaker's part, to be "sensual".
To the former I'd say this has more to do with the fact that humans are sinful and immoral, rather than the beat is inherently so. The music is pleasurable enough to be widely popular, so when immoral people use it it often gets coupled with immoral lyrics and attitudes.
To the latter, I'd say movement in response to music being "sensual" is subjective. Not all are, and they certainly don't have to necessarily be so.
Is toe tapping sexual in nature? I don't even see hip movements as neccessarily sexual. Hip thrusting, yes. (And I've never seen anybody do that in church, and not even at a Christian rock concert.) Swaying doesn't have to be. (Although I'll submit that if done a certain way it is.)
Lastly, with the whole "melodic" vs "rhythmic" thing--according to my research, worship music in OT times was primarily rhythmic.
The videos I just finished watching are more or less the arguments I grew up with, just pretty much collected together and rationalized.
I do have training in music theory and playing an instrument--I'm a pianist and have played with a worship team a bit, so I understood the illustrations.
The arguments presented are built on the assumption that back beats and "beat anticipation" is bad. With not much explanation for this other than it's associated with an immoral pop culture and it encourages movements that are assumed, on the speaker's part, to be "sensual".
To the former I'd say this has more to do with the fact that humans are sinful and immoral, rather than the beat is inherently so. The music is pleasurable enough to be widely popular, so when immoral people use it it often gets coupled with immoral lyrics and attitudes.
To the latter, I'd say movement in response to music being "sensual" is subjective. Not all are, and they certainly don't have to necessarily be so.
Is toe tapping sexual in nature? I don't even see hip movements as neccessarily sexual. Hip thrusting, yes. (And I've never seen anybody do that in church, and not even at a Christian rock concert.) Swaying doesn't have to be. (Although I'll submit that if done a certain way it is.)
Lastly, with the whole "melodic" vs "rhythmic" thing--according to my research, worship music in OT times was primarily rhythmic.
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All sorts of immoral things happen in the backseat of cars, too. I'm gonna start a movement that cars with back seats are immoral and good Christians should only drive Corvettes, Miatas and single door pickup trucks.. I will rail against the evil of backseats and the inherent wickedness of fold-down backseats. Pastors should set the good example by abstaining from backseat vehicles!
Amen Rev!! Preach it!!! I'm removing the TWO sets of back seats in my minivan, the evil thing that it is. TWO back seats!!! Did you hear me??
Speaking as a musician (albeit a poor one!) who has used that skill in church (poorly!) I have to say much depends on "how" the music is used.
The simple truth is that no matter the genre, it is possible to use music to manipulate emotions to evoke a desired response.
Bev Shea can do it, and so can a hard rocker.
And while I hate to admit, there are times a musician is actually TOLD by a pastor what the pastor wants the musicians to evoke.
Gag me with a spoon! Whatever your genre, be it hymns or ccm or southern gospel, or whatever, do it right. Don't extend the session so long people start to check their brains at the door. Don't make them stand so long IF you are consciously wanting the blood to pool out of the brain. (Yes, it happens, and deliberately by untrustworthy types.) Don't write discord into the music with the intention that when you stop it, people will feel such relief they will believe anything the pastor says.
I've seen in done with hymns and a pipe organ. Seen it done with a praise band and ccm. Seen it done with southern gospel and honky tonk western.
Whatever music you choose, don't channel Finney. Do it honestly, and not to manipulate. And yes, watch the congregation. I am one that has witnessed hip thrusting, rather than swaying. I've witnessed one guy getting so into the beat, closing his eyes and shaking his head to it rapidly that when it ended he was disoriented.
I'm skipping worship at our current church until we get a pastor, then will do SS, leave, and reappear at time for preaching.
While the music isn't my preferred style, I could deal with it. While the lady leading the singing sings just a tad sharp, and is an upper range soprano already, it is very off putting but I could deal with it. But the guy, bless his pea picking heart, that does the drums gets totally into it. I mean way into it. He is an older boomer and his hearing is shot, maybe from too much loud music but who knows? He gets so very loud the offkey lead singer and keyboardist makes faces and gets lost as she cannot hear the music for the drumming.
Simply putting him on electric drums and controlling them with the sound board, or putting up one of those clear drum shields, or using mutes and a comforter in the bass drum to tone things down, would allow the lead singer to hear the music and maybe be on key.
It is what it is. More people are skipping the music portion than attending it. Hopeful with new leadership the music issue will be addressed.
Until it is, I take a child with sensitive ears and perfect pitch. We aren't going to blow her musical talent so an old rocker can rock on.
The simple truth is that no matter the genre, it is possible to use music to manipulate emotions to evoke a desired response.
Bev Shea can do it, and so can a hard rocker.
And while I hate to admit, there are times a musician is actually TOLD by a pastor what the pastor wants the musicians to evoke.
Gag me with a spoon! Whatever your genre, be it hymns or ccm or southern gospel, or whatever, do it right. Don't extend the session so long people start to check their brains at the door. Don't make them stand so long IF you are consciously wanting the blood to pool out of the brain. (Yes, it happens, and deliberately by untrustworthy types.) Don't write discord into the music with the intention that when you stop it, people will feel such relief they will believe anything the pastor says.
I've seen in done with hymns and a pipe organ. Seen it done with a praise band and ccm. Seen it done with southern gospel and honky tonk western.
Whatever music you choose, don't channel Finney. Do it honestly, and not to manipulate. And yes, watch the congregation. I am one that has witnessed hip thrusting, rather than swaying. I've witnessed one guy getting so into the beat, closing his eyes and shaking his head to it rapidly that when it ended he was disoriented.
I'm skipping worship at our current church until we get a pastor, then will do SS, leave, and reappear at time for preaching.
While the music isn't my preferred style, I could deal with it. While the lady leading the singing sings just a tad sharp, and is an upper range soprano already, it is very off putting but I could deal with it. But the guy, bless his pea picking heart, that does the drums gets totally into it. I mean way into it. He is an older boomer and his hearing is shot, maybe from too much loud music but who knows? He gets so very loud the offkey lead singer and keyboardist makes faces and gets lost as she cannot hear the music for the drumming.
Simply putting him on electric drums and controlling them with the sound board, or putting up one of those clear drum shields, or using mutes and a comforter in the bass drum to tone things down, would allow the lead singer to hear the music and maybe be on key.
It is what it is. More people are skipping the music portion than attending it. Hopeful with new leadership the music issue will be addressed.
Until it is, I take a child with sensitive ears and perfect pitch. We aren't going to blow her musical talent so an old rocker can rock on.
Only in its stupidity, Jordan. Only in its stupidity. Come out from amongst whomever is telling you to watch these. Don't fall for it. We had this discussion years ago on BB. All this stuff about beats cometh from Greek philosophy; NOT, I repeat NOT from God's Word.
God's Word is silent on beat, rhythm, etc. Flood your mind with God's Word; not the words and teachings of these hooligans.
Were the backseats of cars created out of rebellion as a form of rebellion?
You're comparing apples to oranges.
Was rock and roll created out of rebellion as a form of rebellion? Think carefully. The same thing was said about jazz.
Were Jack Haley, Elvis Presley, Carl Perkins, and Jerry Lee Lewis, rebels? Little Richard, Chubby Checkers, Chuck Berry?
There is no way for this to be proved, to my knowledge there is no recorded musical scores of ancient Hebrew music.
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
I'd have to do more research on that area to confirm or deny this, granted.
I'd point out, though, that the instruments mentioned in the Psalms do include percussion instruments, which are not melodic. The example below mentioned timbrels and cymbals, which are both relatives of drum sets. Timbrels are more or less the ancient Israeli version of tambourines.
Psalm 150
1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
There doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that certain rhythms were forbidden in temple worship, nor any mentioned limit on the use of percussion.
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evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
Even here, we come right back to the whole "immoral people can use good things for bad purposes" thing--even if rock was originally "created" to express rebellion, that has way more to do with the attitude of the creators than it does the music itself. KWIM?
If, for the sake of argument, someone originally created cars to run over people, would that make cars inherently immoral? Would it nullify the fact that cars can be used in a good and responsible way?
Rock is a music style, created by using specific instruments (sometimes in accompaniment with other instruments*) and by using timing (or beat) in a specific way. Music is an art form that attempts to express emotion through sound. Rock expresses many emotions. An attitude of anger and rebellion can be one of them, but it's not limited to that. Not even heavy metal, which is known for it's intensity. (I listen to heavy metal, so I can attest that it's definitely not all about being angry at the world.)
Here are the lyrics to a (secular) pop rock song called Closer, by Joe Inoue:
That's the first verse. There's no trace of anger in the song at all; it leaves the listener feeling encouraged and uplifted, and it reminds you that life is a gift.
The music works together with the lyrics to express these emotions--in fact, the emotions would not be nearly as strong without the music's role.
If a secular artist can use rock music to express things that are good and commendable, perhaps a Christian artist can do the same.
*Keyboards would be the most common. And I could even name a rock song that has violins in it.
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evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
In addition to my thoughts in post #31, I would also point out the above mention of dancing right after the mention of timbrels. One could argue this suggests use of dance-inducing rhythm.
Is it possible that God actually designed our bodies to respond to certain rhythms in that way as a part of worship? (That literally just occurred to me, it's a new thought.)
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I think you are right. I personally am not a dance person, but I believe that those Psalms clearly show that dance and rythmic music were used to praise and glorify God and were acceptable to him.
Then we have the example of Miriam:
Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing. - Exo 15:20 ESV
After the Hebrews crossed the Red Sea, Moses sings a song of victory, followed by Miraim singing a victory song and dancing. Note the apparent connection of the tambourine (Timbrel KJV) with Miriam's dancing. What I find most interesting is that Miriam is most likely Moses' older sister by at least several years. So we have an approximately 85 year old woman (Moses was about 80 at this point, Ex 7:7) with a tambourine, singing and dancing in worship of God!
Also we have the example of David:
And it was told King David, "The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-edom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God." So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom to the city of David with rejoicing. And when those who bore the ark of the LORD had gone six steps, he sacrificed an ox and a fattened animal. And David danced before the LORD with all his might. And David was wearing a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting and with the sound of the horn. - 2Sa 6:12-15 ESV
David danced in worship of God. Growing up in a very conservative SBC church and in the IFB churches I attended during/after my military time, I was taught that David was in the wrong here because of what his wife said to him. This astounds me today since it absolutely ignores that David is said to be doing this "before the LORD" and that the writer at least suggests that God was on David's side and punishes Michal by making her barren.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
Not if they don't anticipate the beat.
This in no way proves that they were used in the same way that much of your contemporary music uses percussion today.
How do you know that the percussion wasn't used in a classical style?
You're saying that because the Hebrews used percussion that it's acceptable to have driving rock beats in our worship songs?
The musical style is used to express rebellion and carnality.
You're trying to compare apples to oranges, Car's are amoral.
Music is not.
I read through some of it, the Spirit and attitude of the writer turned me off big time.
here is my friends response to the article:
I read about a fourth of it and grew tired of hearing blatant lies. This fella is not even playing with half a deck of cards. He states things as fact that are absolutely, completely lies. His article reminds me of what was called "The Big Lie" - made famous by Bill Clinton. His technique was to tell the most preposterous lie -- saying it so confidently with no real evidence -- that no one would ever suspect that he would just make up such a ridiculous lie. "It must be true!" This writer tells lie after lie after lie. He also speaks from an incredibly uninformed standpoint. Particularly concerning the history of music. He certainly believes that music is amoral. If you follow the logic of what he is saying, there is absolutely no limit to what sound in music you could call acceptable to God. If he were to try to make a line, a standard, he would be viewed as the biggest hypocrite of all, after reviewing his reasoning points. This is modern day "antinomianism" -- it is the questioning of all restraints, standards, and biblical principles in application to our lives, so that the person is left free of anything to limit his pursuit of personal satisfaction. Jordan, I have seen individuals follow down this deceitful path, all along toting their false philosophy as confident proof of their being right with God, while their life spirals down in every area of morality and practice. They will defend it right down to the point where they are going to Hollywood movies, lusting after women, and the sky is the limit at that point. Paul and John warned against this evil philosophy. Music is not amoral.
Amazingly, in his stating of the positions of fundamentalist (which he arrogantly looks down upon as stupid, rigid, ignorant, out-of-touch, insensitive, uncaring, unloving baffoons) he presents wonderful arguments against what he is trying to promote. Some how, he feels that when he states the position of the other person fairly, he has discredited it. I found the arguments he was stating from his opposition to be far more sound and based on deeper knowledge than his flimsy, feel-good, tolerant of anything, reach the world any way philosophy.
You'll have to make your own choice in this area, but your decision will send you down a path that will determine the outcome of your ministry. As your friend and brother in Christ, I exhort you to take the high road and choose music you know is spiritual and pleasing to God.
For Christ and His Glory (Not my preferences and personal pleasure),
Bro. Phil
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
You and your friend are being inconsistent Jordan. You expect folks to watch all of your videos and yet refuse to finish reading the other point of view. Is that really a fair way to approach an issue?
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