Ezekiel 18 Falling away and become wicked

[LeBuick]

Bob Ryan,

Is this the passage in Mt you keep referring to?

Mt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Or are you saying this passage contridicts itself?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Bob Ryan,

Is this the passage in Mt you keep referring to?

Mt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Or are you saying this passage contridicts itself?

That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. (John 18:9)

Since Christ shows here He will not lose one of His sheep, I believe even when a sheep strays, He goes and gets it. It never is lost in the sense that the owner does not know where it is.

Think about this...

Even though the sheep strayed, the shepherd still owns it.

Even when one of Christ's saived ones stray, we are still His.

Ye are not your own, for ye are bought with a price.

How can we become satan's property without Christ signing the bill of sale?

God told satan he couild do what he wanted to Job, but he could not take his life.

Our life is in Christ. satan cannot take it. we cannot give it to satan, for it does not belong to us, it belongs to Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan,

Is this the passage in Mt you keep referring to?

Mt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Or are you saying this passage contridicts itself?

God says in 2Peter 3 "He is not willing for ANY to perish" and as you point out "NOT the will of your Father.. that one of these little ones should perish".

But when reading Matt 18 we see that it ends with the illustration of "Forgiveness revoked".

Matt 18

26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

Matt 18
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

 

[BobRyan]

I agree, OT righteousness was via the law which is not the vehicle of salvation.

Heb 11 shows "giants of the faith" that were fully accepted by God "by faith alone" and Heb 4:1 says "The Gospel was preached to US just as it was TO THEM ALSO".

I am going to have to go with scripture on this one..

Gal 1:6-11 ONE GOSPEL in ALL of time -- one and only ONE.

So Enoch and Elijah were taken directly to heaven via the ONE Gospel that actually works!

 

[BobRyan]

9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.

In the case of Luke 11, the unsaved are doing righteous acts
In the case of Ezekiel 18, the unsaved are doing righteous acts.

Kind of an interesting way to contradict the text of scripture in Ezek 18.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

Securists really have problem with Ezekiel chapter 18. Because, unconditional security salvation, itself teaching that, we are alreayd saved once when after we onced believed in Christ, we are already secured in Christ, no matter what happen to us, no matter how often we sinned afterward, we are still always saved, it is called, 'unconditional security salvation.

But, Ezekiel chapter 18 mentioned conditional salvation base upon individual. Throughout this chapter talk about repentance. If a 'righteous' turn away from righteousness, and continue in transgress, and remain in sinned, shall bring forth to death.

'Death' is not speak of physical, it speaks of spiritual.

Same with Luke 15:32 says, if supposed a prodigal son remain in sin, he shall bring forth to death(dead), it speaks of spiritual death. So, that mean if a righteous turn away from righteousness life, and continue in sins throoughout life, it shall bring forth to death, the consquence would be in hell(destruction-Matt. 7:13).

James 1:14-16 telling the same thing as Ezekiel chapter 18. James 1:14-16 say, "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH. DO NOT ERR, my beloved brethren."

This passage warn us, if we are remain in sinning in out life, it shall bring forth us to DEATH. 'Death' is speak of spiritual death means the conquence would be end up in hell.

James 1:14-16 was written to believers, not lost people. Clear, it warns us, that we do not commit sins in our life, if we commit sins in our life, it would lead us to death without repentance or confess sins to Christ.

There is no difference between James 1:14-16 and Ezekiel 1`8. Both tell the same thing.

Bible commands us we ough walk in the Spirit daily, do not filled with flesh and lust in our life, if we walk in the flesh, we shall be bring forth to hell(Gal. 5:19-21; and Gal. 6:7-8).

Bible commands us that we do not commit sins. If we commit sins, then we would be end up in everlasting fire.

We ought take heed God's Word, and obey His word, so we can have everlasting life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DPT: We ought take heed God's Word, and obey His word, so we can have everlasting life.

HP: Amen. Do not forget Galatians 5 which clearly teaches that the only way to not fall under the condemnation of the law is to walk in the Spirit. Those that fail to do so, ‘will not inherit eternal life.

 

[LeBuick]

God says in 2Peter 3 "He is not willing for ANY to perish" and as you point out "NOT the will of your Father.. that one of these little ones should perish".

But when reading Matt 18 we see that it ends with the illustration of "Forgiveness revoked".

Matt 18

26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

Matt 18
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

This is my point, you are saying there is one of the fold who will not repent. Not one of the wolves in sheep clothing, you're saying one of his sheep will not forgive. This means Mt 18 contridicts itself because he previously said he would leave the ninety and nine to go after the one lost sheep.

Which is it? Will he go after HIS lost sheep or will he (Mt 18:34)...delivered him to the tormentors? Since God is our father, doesn't he chastise his own?

 

[BobRyan]

The unforgiving servant has "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 even though he is really forgiven. There is no way to change the story.

In Romans 11 Paul says "HE is able to graft them in again IF they do not CONTINUE in unbelief" -

I take that to apply in Matt 18 in the form of saying that IF the unforgiving servant does not persist in the rebellion of clinging to an unforgiving spirit - he two can be restored once again.

But the state of "forgiveness revoked" is real - and the unforgiving servant need "real repentance" and to get "real forgiveness" once again.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

'Ye are not your own, ye are bought with a price.'


Satan cannot own that which Christ has purchased. Christ is not going to give His purchased possession to the devil.

A saved person remains saved and can never lose his or her Salvation.

Case closed!

 

[BobRyan]

'Ye are not your own, ye are bought with a price.'


Satan cannot own that which Christ has purchased. Christ is not going to give His purchased possession to the devil.

A saved person remains saved and can never lose his or her Salvation.

Case closed!

SFIC -- I have never doubted your ability to post an argument of the form "I am right because I always say I am right -- case closed".

Please do not think I am challenging your ability to do that in anyway.

Since this thread is on the fact that Ezek 18 debunks OSAS

Ezek 18

9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.

For now I am going to have to go with scripture on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

SFIC -- I have never doubted your ability to post an argument of the form "I am right because I always say I am right -- case closed".

Please do not think I am challenging your ability to do that in anyway.

Since this thread is on the fact that Ezek 18 debunks OSAS




For now I am going to have to go with scripture on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

Ezekiel 18 does not debunk OSAS. It does just the opposite. It debunks Loss of Salvation.

Since Christ will not give His purchased possessions over to satan to destroy the soul, Ezekiel 18 cannot be debunking OSAS.

Case Closed... whether you want to accept the truth or not.

God said it. That settles it.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

SFC,

Paul said in 1 Cor. 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ."

This is speak of the Holy Spirit.

When we accepted Christ, the Holy Spirit comes in us and He is sealed in us - Eph. 1:13. Just like we are engaged with Christ, we are not yet marry to Christ till second coming of Revelation chapter 19. Revelation chapter 19 mentioned of 'Marriage of the Lamb'. Wife shall be make her ready and being dress in white robe or garment to marry Bride. Christ is our Bride, IF we continue to the end. In Hebrews 3:6 says, "But Christ as son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we HOLD FAST the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

If we do not hold fast the confidence and the hope till the end(at our death or Lord comes), then we shall not be God's household, and we would not be Christ's child(Rev. 21:7).

Back to 1 Cor. 5:5. It speaks of be remain in the Spirit, because are sealed with the spirit, till the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30). WE should not grieve the Holy Spirit, because He dwells in us, and being sealed. If we grieve Holy Spirit, then we would be no longer being sealed, and our soul shall not be delivery in the day of Christ, that means, if we sinning and turn away from the Lord, by the time, we die or Lord comes, we shall not be saved (Matt. 24:13), we shall be destruction(Matt. 7:13), that means both our body and soul shall be send into everlasting fire. So, we should fear of the Lord - Matt. 10:28.

Romans 11:19-23 telling us, we should fear at the Lord, because He have the power to cut us off, if we do not continue with our faith. Same as in John chapter 15 telling us, we might be cut off and cast away in the fire.


Yes, Christ can give our soul to Satan, if we turn away from the Lord. One thing that Satan cannot touch our soul, he have no power and authority. Only God have the authority. If we turn away from Him, He would loosed us out of his Hand, and allow Satan to take over us.

Bible commands us, we should look up at Christ daily, and hold our hope of eternal life, lest us away from it, we must steadfast and hold our hope till the end, or, if we do not endure it, then we would be destruction at the end- Matt. 7:13.

Entering the gate of eternal life of Matt. 7:14 is not easy life, our process of salvation life is hardship. We must be endure through it to the end, and we shall overcome them and be victory to receive eternal life. Obivous, there are many passages with conditionals in the Bible with "if's", "hold fast", "continue", "steadfast", etc.

If we fail them in our life, at the end, we shall not be saved (Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13), we would be end up in everlasting life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

DPT,

Notice it says only the flesh is destroyed. Satan does not have the soul of a saved person.

IF that saved person lost his salvation, his soul would be up for grabs.

The man in 1 Corinthians 5 was not in danger of losing his soul, for it belonged to the Lord.

Job was not in danger of losing his soul, it belonged to the Lord.

We cannot break the seal of the Holy Spirit. What God shutteth, no man openeth.

The Holy Spirit will never leave the saved. We will not be forsaken.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

To say Christ will give the soul of one who has been purchased by Him over to satan is just as wrong as the ME proponents claimed. Both are wrong.

Christ said those that believe in Him shall never perish. He will not give those who have placed their trust in Him to satan.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

SFC,

Satan cannot touch our soul, but, God can. Because, all our souls are belong to God's. In 1 Cor. 3:17 tells us, our body are belong to God, even, our soul are to God. If we defile ourselves, God shall destroy our soul and cast us away in hell - Matt. 10:28.

Notice, 1 Cor. 5:5 tells us, "that the spirit MAY BE saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ." This is speak of 'the day of redemtion'- Eph. 4:30. It shall be at the second coming. Rapture shall be follow at the second coming same time. If we defile within ourselves, then Christ shall destroy our souls at second coming. We are not yet arrive at the final stage of the salvation, because we are now in the spiritual warfare in the midst of the narrow road while we are now alive(flesh)(Matt. 7:14). Once when after we endure throughout our life at our death or Lord comes, we shall be a overcomer, and our souls shall be delivery by Christ. Also, while we enduring at the time Lord comes, then, our souls shall be delivery into eternal life. That means, we all shall be changed into immortality new glory body to be like Christ's (1 Cor. 15:51-57). Or, if we fail to endure and remain walk in the dark by the Lord comes, we would be end up being caught as "thief" and be cast away into the everlasting fire. Christ have the right to take our body and soul cast away into hell(Matt. 10:28), if we do not endure. We must fear of the Lord daily.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

SFC,

John 3:16 speaks of God's promise to us, anyone who is continue believing in Christ shall not go to hell, but have eternal life. That mean, if we stopped believing, then at the end we will not have eternal life.

'Believeth' in KJV is a continue sense word, it means, 'believing'.

Bible doesn't say we onced "believed" in Christ already have eternal life at one time event for salvation.

Bible teaching us, we must continue believe in Christ throughout our life till death or Lord comes, or, if we stopped believing Christ, we would be cut off - John 15:6 & Romans 11:19-23.

That why we must fear of the Lord daily.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

DPT,

If God destroys one who was saved in hell, it makes His Son a liar.

Jesus promised that those that believe in Him SHALL NEVER perish.
Jesus also promised never to leave us nor forsake us.

Yes, we will stray from time to time. But as our Great Shepherd, He goes out and brings us back into the fold. That does not mean we lose our Salvation, for

He that believeth hath eternal life.

It only means we fell along the way.

Jesus is not a liar.

He told Paul He would confirm us to the end and present us blameless. He will do it. He is faithful who promised.

You can choose to live in fear of losing your Salvation if you wish. I will trust Christ that He did not lie when He gave me ETERNAL life.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

SFC,

John 3:16 speaks of God's promise to us, anyone who is continue believing in Christ shall not go to hell, but have eternal life. That mean, if we stopped believing, then at the end we will not have eternal life.

'Believeth' in KJV is a continue sense word, it means, 'believing'.

Bible doesn't say we onced "believed" in Christ already have eternal life at one time event for salvation.

Bible teaching us, we must continue believe in Christ throughout our life till death or Lord comes, or, if we stopped believing Christ, we would be cut off - John 15:6 & Romans 11:19-23.

That why we must fear of the Lord daily.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DPT,

One who is of Christ, who has placed his or her faith in Christ, believes and will never stop believing in Christ.

I believe it was Cutter who used the illustration of the bridge last night to represent Christ.

You can say that you believe that bridge will take you to the other side. And it will. But only after you exercise trust. You must step out on the bridge... else your belief is dead, being alone.

Once you step out, you know the bridge will hold you and take you to the other side.

Once you place your trust in Christ, you cannot stop believing in Him.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

SFC,

Do you think it is possible for ALLLLL believers cannot stop believing in Christ in their lifetime?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!