FAITH AND WORKS

[utilyan]

Everything that God has ever said is specifically given to the chosen people of God. The elect, predestined to redemption.

One of these verses is true and in scripture, the other is not.


John 20

31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

31but these have been written for those who got their mind zapped, saved and believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that having life in his name now you can believe.

 

[Barry Johnson]

IF there was something more important it would at the FRONT.
The Gospel was being taught long before any bible was written down.

Well none of those who were walking with Jesus understood it so that can't be true .
plus had anyone understood the death burial and resurrection ,before his death He would not have been crucified. 1 cor 2.8

 

[Barry Johnson]

IF there was something more important it would at the FRONT.
The Gospel was being taught long before any bible was written down.

We can say that we see the types and shadows and connect the dots from the cross to all the prophecies when we look back . But they were not " looking forward to the cross " . Peter rather cut someone's ear off than let Jesus go to the cross " . They all were devastated when He was on the cross . They were not ' looking forward to the cross .

 

[Barry Johnson]

IF there was something more important it would at the FRONT.
The Gospel was being taught long before any bible was written down.

Not if something hadn't happened yet .

 

[mailmandan]

Believing the LORD JESUS CHRIST doesn't equate to merely Jesus exists.

That is mere "mental assent" belief. Believing in Jesus unto salvation involves believing in/having faith in/trusting in/relying in Jesus Christ for salvation. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) Their trust and reliance is in Satan (not Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The opposite of believing in Jesus is NOT OBEYING.

Not obeying may be a manifestation of not believing, yet the opposite of believing is not believing. I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by "obedience/works" which "follows" believing in the Son. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follows" believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

"1 cor 13 in context is about the misuse and having the wrong idea about the gifts. Paul is simply showing ' a more excellent way " Charity . The gifts will cease ,but Chairty will remain ."

CHARITY = LOVE AGAPE. You are right its about having the wrong idea bout the gifts, YOU HAVE THE WRONG IDEA!

You think FAITH is superior to LOVE. INDEED THE GOOD WORK--> CHARITY is more EXCELLENT.

LOVE is GOD. IF I said Faith is God that would be a blasphemy THERE is only ONE GOD. LOVE is GOD.

Paul uses hyperbole about understanding all mysteries and all knowledge and having faith that can move mountains to stress the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith + love. You could never produce enough good works/acts of charity to earn your salvation, which can only be obtained by grace through faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

After we have been saved through faith, love certainly is the greatest quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

 

[37818]

I never said there was a 0 BC or a 0 AD, I said the dates count down to 0 and up from 0.

And your assertion was not correct in that. Because BC counnts down to 1, not zero. AD counts up from 1, not zero.

1 stated that it was a joke.

I missed that.

The fact that 90-100 AD comes after 70 AD because with AD lower numbers come before higher numbers has EVERYTHING to do with your question.

And did not explain why for that belief in that late date for John's account.

 

[37818]

Like I said, publish and correct the scholarly majority
I am not an expert and I have no vested interest in any specific date.

I am not one of the experts either. The propoised early pre 70 AD date for John has been published.

We, non-experts, are discussing this here. We have our opinions as to why we believe what we believe about a thing. There are things I know and there are things I am open to change my views on.

 

[Alex2165]

To Barry.

You constantly changing you accusation and picking at every word in order to find a glitch, and twisting the meaning of the words according to your denomination doctrines, which is obviously false.

Once you wrote to me, "1 cor 4.20 20For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.( simple) let's not add to that please."

Second time you wrote, "[/QUOT is it a paraphrase bible ?."

When you explain statement of the Bible to someone do you call it paraphrase? When a pastor explains verses of the Bible, would you called it paraphrasing?

You constantly flip-flopping and looking to caught and trapped on the word.

Is not the Pharisees and Sadducees used the same tactics as you do to trap Jesus Christ at His words? Something very canning in you, very crafty, deceitful, and unsettling.

And such a character of yours is not surprising, because you believe and promote faith which is based on nothing.

How you prove you loyalty to you superior if you are not obeying his orders? How you can prove your love to you close one without doing anything good. How you can prove your faith in GOD without obeying and doing His Commandments?

And again, you said you have faith, and demons have faith in GOD (James 2.19) and they know Him better than you do, so what's the difference between your faith and demon's faith?

And of course you probably will also claim that you are already saved, and I assume because of your empty "faith" without good works.

Proverbs 19.21
"Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord, it will stand." KSB.

"People may plan all kinds of things, but the Lord's will is going to be done." GNB.

 

[utilyan]

Not if something hadn't happened yet .

Barry I can be proven wrong quite easily.

Tell me about that SEETHING HATRED OF GOD you had when you were saved.

Just show me one instance that GOOD WORK --> LOVE OF GOD was not there.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry I can be proven wrong quite easily.

Tell me about that SEETHING HATRED OF GOD you had when you were saved.

Just show me one instance that GOOD WORK --> LOVE OF GOD was not there.

I think your really confused about salvation. Its believe and be saved . Jesus already has finished it . Your help is not asked for . God is only pleased to save those that believe. This is hard for the proud to accept this . Jesus said He came to those that recognised that they were sick and in need of a physician. The ones who just say ' I cannot save myself " .

 

[utilyan]

I think your really confused about salvation. Its believe and be saved . Jesus already has finished it . Your help is not asked for . God is only pleased to save those that believe. This is hard for the proud to accept this . Jesus said He came to those that recognised that they were sick and in need of a physician. The ones who just say ' I cannot save myself " .

Again I believe that word those that "believe" entails obedience which demand love of God. Just tell us about how much you hated God when you believed and you win.

Show us this guy who HATES GOD when he says He cannot save himself. Its obvious cry for mercy.

Far as motive, God does so on mercy. There isn't a requirement of Faith or Works done. He saved Paul without Paul doing anything and having absolutely NO FAITH in God.

Paul himself will tell you why God intervene.

1 Timothy 1

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Why was he shown mercy? "because I acted ignorantly in unbelief"

But the goal always remains the same:

1 Timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.



Why is it such a big deal to have FAITH devoid of Love? tell me what is wrong with the statement "Faith working through love"?

Its 100% biblical.

The guy who claims we are saved by PATIENCE ALONE, has a BETTER CASE THEN YOU.


James 1

4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Patience is so perfect that can leave a person perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Do you understand? If a guy showed up swearing up and down we are saved by "patience alone". HE actually has a bible line he point at.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Again I believe that word those that "believe" entails obedience which demand love of God. Just tell us about how much you hated God when you believed and you win.

Show us this guy who HATES GOD when he says He cannot save himself. Its obvious cry for mercy.

Far as motive, God does so on mercy. There isn't a requirement of Faith or Works done. He saved Paul without Paul doing anything and having absolutely NO FAITH in God.

Paul himself will tell you why God intervene.

1 Timothy 1

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Why was he shown mercy? "because I acted ignorantly in unbelief"

But the goal always remains the same:

1 Timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.



Why is it such a big deal to have FAITH devoid of Love? tell me what is wrong with the statement "Faith working through love"?

Its 100% biblical.

The guy who claims we are saved by PATIENCE ALONE, has a BETTER CASE THEN YOU.


James 1

4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Patience is so perfect that can leave a person perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Do you understand? If a guy showed up swearing up and down we are saved by "patience alone". HE actually has a bible line he point at.

////Again I believe that word those that "believe" entails obedience /////
l

Again I believe that word those that "believe" entails obedience which demand love of God. Just tell us about how much you hated God when you believed and you win.

Show us this guy who HATES GOD when he says He cannot save himself. Its obvious cry for mercy.

Far as motive, God does so on mercy. There isn't a requirement of Faith or Works done. He saved Paul without Paul doing anything and having absolutely NO FAITH in God.

Paul himself will tell you why God intervene.

1 Timothy 1

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Why was he shown mercy? "because I acted ignorantly in unbelief"

But the goal always remains the same:

1 Timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.



Why is it such a big deal to have FAITH devoid of Love? tell me what is wrong with the statement "Faith working through love"?

Its 100% biblical.

The guy who claims we are saved by PATIENCE ALONE, has a BETTER CASE THEN YOU.


James 1

4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Patience is so perfect that can leave a person perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Do you understand? If a guy showed up swearing up and down we are saved by "patience alone". HE actually has a bible line he point at.

In our dialogue so far we haven't even begun past step 1 . How are we justified? Until a person is justified ,no matter how much he really, really ,really tries to love God and give to Charity, when he dies ,he goes to hell . God is not pleased about this and neither will the person be who completely missed the point that Jesus provided for him and it was not a self help option . Your teaching self help new age nonsense . " The power is within you to change , all you need is love " , Just reach out and love your neighbours brother ' . Love is within you . Love wins brother " .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry I can be proven wrong quite easily.

Tell me about that SEETHING HATRED OF GOD you had when you were saved.

Just show me one instance that GOOD WORK --> LOVE OF GOD was not there.

Some believers go from understanding the Love of God ,to being decieved into erroneous beliefs about God's Character, that involve ideas like T.U.L.I.P, Catholicism, Arminianism, lutherism , and every other Ism and those that teaches works salvation, which Paul warns just like Eve was decieved we too can be decieved away from the simplicity in Christ.

 

[Holly]

It is not so much “faith PLUS works” as it is faith THAT works. It is the quality of the faith that is saving. Saving faith produces works. We are justified by grace, THROUGH faith. that same grace that justifies us is the faith that produces good works in and through us.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Where many evangelicals will stop reading at verse 9, Catholics continue into verse 10. The grace that saves us through faith is there to make us His workmanship, and to make us walk in the good deeds He has prepared.

very good! nicely put together in context.

 

[Holly]

Literally every Baptist presents this statement in defense of the doctrine - faith only:

"which GOD prepared beforehand." Yes, GOD always gives to us opportunity to do good works in order to test us and to prove our faith. Just like GOD did with Abraham, testing Abraham's faith by asking him to sacrifice his only son. Abraham could say no to GOD and GOD would not demand or punish Abraham, but certainly would find another man to create for Himself His own priestly nation.

I am having a hard time with this. I have been taught that we should discern the holy spirit by making sure it conforms to the word of God. Yet in Isaiah or Jeremiah, God says it never even came into his heart to ask them to sacrifice their children. So I know that he didn't want Abraham to go through with the sacrifice, but why would he even ask that. It seems inconsistent with his character.

 

[Holly]

John 14
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

"My commandments are not grievous"