Faith; Before or after salvation?

[betterthanideserve]

God Chooses me?

I understand the question, and I love gifts at Christmas time. I will send you a list if you are interested in sending me some.

But I know where your going with this and believe it to be a false dichotomy. The questions springs from "accept Jesus" theology and is false. You do not choose Him. He chooses you.

Does God choose me?Or does the Holy Spirit draw me? I believe the Holy Spirit draws me,now I can choose to resist the Holy Spirit and go on in my unforgiven state. But if I have no choice in the matter,then why should I worry about it? I mean if God has already determined who he is going to save why worry?
But, if, on the other hand there is a need for me to choose ,(if I really do have a say in the matter)then I had better make the correct decision,Right?
I'm not saying that an omnescient God doesn't know who will or will not accept his free gift of eternal life,but we still have to choose. If we have no choice how is God truly showing his love toward us? Just go on and make us obey.No wait that would make us slaves,not servants.:tear:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Does God choose me?Or does the Holy Spirit draw me? I believe the Holy Spirit draws me,now I can choose to resist the Holy Spirit and go on in my unforgiven state. But if I have no choice in the matter,then why should I worry about it? I mean if God has already determined who he is going to save why worry?
But, if, on the other hand there is a need for me to choose ,(if I really do have a say in the matter)then I had better make the correct decision,Right?
I'm not saying that an omnescient God doesn't know who will or will not accept his free gift of eternal life,but we still have to choose. If we have no choice how is God truly showing his love toward us? Just go on and make us obey.No wait that would make us slaves,not servants.:tear:

I can begin answering the questions and misconceptions concerning calvinistic doctrine, but wouldn't it be better for you to read something that has already been expounded many times? This way we don't have to start the conversation with misunderstandings.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to chat with you, but may you should read what calvinists believe concerning the sovereignty of God, man's responsibilty and duty, free-will, effectual calling, et. If you are willing, I will post a few links, then we chat...

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Indeed I do hope those that don't believe it do believe it, it is the Bible after all. And you object to this? You might want to loosen your noose, I believe the oxygen to your brain is extremely limited!

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

Believe and you will be saved. Believe....and you will be saved. Believe and....you will be saved.

1. Believe
2. You will be saved.

:thumbs: However, as you will discover, the simple will become the hangman for many.

May the Lord have mercy on you. Mr.M, if you wish to continue a dialogue with me I must insist you refrain from personal attacks. May the Lord not charge it against you.

 

[old regular]

Regeneration

Regeneration and Conversion are two different things.Regeneration is a creative work of God,and therefore a work in which man is purely passive,it is the giving of life.Two elements must be distinguished in regeneration namely,generation or begetting of the new life, and bearing or bringing forth, by which the new life is brought forth out of its hidden depths.Generation implants the principle of the new life in the soul,and the new birth causes this principle to begin to assert itself in action.this distinction is of great importance for proper understanding of regeneration. John 1:13,3:3,4,5,6,7,8; IPeter1:23
I John2:29;3:9; 4:7;5:1-4,18. Conversion is born of a Godly Sorrow, and issues in a life of devotion to God,II Cor.7:10. It is a change that is rooted in the work of regeneration, and that is effected in the conscious life of the sinner by the Spirit of God; a change of thoughts and opinions, of desires and violations,which involves the conviction that the former direction of life was wrong and unwise and it alters the entire course of life.There are two sides of conversion the one active; active conversion is that act of God whereby He causes the quickened sinner, in his conscious life, to turn to him in faith and repentance.Passive Conversion is the resulting conscious act of the regenerated or begotten sinner whereby he through the Grace of God,turns to God in repentance and faith[turn me Lord and I shall be turned] Examples would be Naaman IIKings 5:15;Manasseh, IIChron.33:12-13;Zaccheus, Luke 19:8-9 the man born blind, john 9:38; the Samaritan woman,John 4:29.39; the eunuch, Acts 8:30 also Paul,Lydia, Cornelius. When you understand these things then you can truly see why we preach a travail from nature to Grace and then you can see that even in nature life is before movement, faith is the fruit of the Spirit, you must have the apple tree to get an apple, you must have the Spirit to have faith, saved has many meanings and is not always speaking about the same principle, faith is before justification; justification and sanctification before the seal of the Holy Spirit of Promise, Romans 8:14,15" For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they ARE the sons of God.For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;but ye HAVE received the Spirit of adoption,where by we cry Abba,Father."Take Care Brother Willis. Prayers and Love Elder Michael Slone

 

[betterthanideserve]

I can begin answering the questions and misconceptions concerning calvinistic doctrine, but wouldn't it be better for you to read something that has already been expounded many times? This way we don't have to start the conversation with misunderstandings.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to chat with you, but may you should read what calvinists believe concerning the sovereignty of God, man's responsibilty and duty, free-will, effectual calling, et. If you are willing, I will post a few links, then we chat...

Feel free to expound away, I know that I ran from God ,and he found me, but I had to surrender to him. He didn't force me, he compelled me ,to the point that I knew I didn't want to go on living with out Christ in my heart.
I really have no desire to read calvinist doctrine but would bemore that willing to have an honest discussion with you. So start by telling me "What exactly do Calvinists believe?"

please no linksraying: : show yourself approved a workman that need not be ashamed...

 

[ReformedBaptist]

He didn't force me, he compelled me ,to the point that I knew I didn't want to go on living with out Christ in my heart.

I smile very big at this statement, because this is a living testimony to the "I" in the TULIP, Irresistable Grace, or as I prefer to call it, effectual calling. Welcome to being "calvinistic"

Now, let me quote you my statement of faith, what I believe, on this point. Be mindful that it was written over 300 years ago,

"Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace." Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4


The bold part I emphasized, for you described in your very experience this very thing. Halleujah!

Now, here is the Scripture from which such a statement springs:

Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."


Eze 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Psalm 110:3 "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth."

Song 1:4 "Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee."

 

[TCGreek]

I smile very big at this statement, because this is a living testimony to the "I" in the TULIP, Irresistable Grace, or as I prefer to call it, effectual calling. Welcome to being "calvinistic"

Now, let me quote you my statement, what I believe, on this point. Be mindful that it was written over 300 years ago,

"Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace."


The bold part I emphasized, for you described in your very experience this very thing. Halleujah!

Now, here is the Scripture from which such a statement springs:

Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."


Eze 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Psalm 110:3 "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth."

Song 1:4 "Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee."

Clearly, one of the Doctrines of grace at work. Praise God.

 

[Brother Bob]

So, even if you don't believe there is a God, and you are a complete atheist, no faith whatsoever. WoW! you are saved!!!!, in

an instant with no knowledge it was taking place. You are the dumbest of the dumb, the deadest of the dead, but WoW!, you

are saved. That sure makes a lot of sense for the preachers to go throughout the whole world and preach "repent and turn

from your sins and believe in Jesus Christ and receive Salvation". What a waste of time for those preachers.

Men, raise up from their bar stool, push their prostitute away and say "I am saved".

The adulterer, gets up and says, "I am saved".

The murderer makes his kill and as he is leaving says, "I am saved"

No, climbing up on rooftops and lowering the sick down to the Saviour.

No, suffering and turning to the Lord for Salvation.

No, Godly sorrow set up in the heart, which works repentance.

No, cleansing of the hands, or the inside so the outside becomes clean.

Nothing, just drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may or may not be saved.
unbelieveable. IMO

Why should anyone listen to a Calvinist preacher? By your own theology, you can't help anyone, you can not lead anyone to Christ, You cannot hasten their Salvation in anyway what so ever. What does it do for you to preach to people, are you afraid the free-willers might get one. Well, if your theology is correct, no one can get one of yours, not even you, so why do you preach.
Why do you try so hard to convince people that the freewillers are wrong, what harm does it do to your people. How can we harm them in anyway whatsoever. What good does it do to get into debates to try and convince me or others that Calvinism is the correct theology, what does it matter if all is already set. You should not get into heated debates if you believe it is already set who is God's children. By getting into heated debates, you waste your time, for if you convinced someone to believe your way and he is not the "elect", he still will die and go to hell. What is your purpose in life as preachers?

 

[Mr.M]

May the Lord have mercy on you. Mr.M, if you wish to continue a dialogue with me I must insist you refrain from personal attacks. May the Lord not charge it against you.

Your sanctimony is almost unbearable. Good grief pal, save it will ya? If your ears are so tender and your constitution so weak that even the most mild analogous jab offends you so greatly it is not I that needs mercy my friend but you who need some seasoning.

 

[betterthanideserve]

Well Said

So, even if you don't believe there is a God, and you are a complete atheist, no faith whatsoever. WoW! you are saved!!!!, in

an instant with no knowledge it was taking place. You are the dumbest of the dumb, the deadest of the dead, but WoW!, you

are saved. That sure makes a lot of sense for the preachers to go throughout the whole world and preach "repent and turn

from your sins and believe in Jesus Christ and receive Salvation". What a waste of time for those preachers.

Men, raise up from their bar stool, push their prostitute away and say "I am saved".

The adulterer, gets up and says, "I am saved".

The murderer makes his kill and as he is leaving says, "I am saved"

No, climbing up on rooftops and lowering the sick down to the Saviour.

No, suffering and turning to the Lord for Salvation.

No, Godly sorrow set up in the heart, which works repentance.

No, cleansing of the hands, or the inside so the outside becomes clean.

Nothing, just drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may or may not be saved.
unbelieveable. IMO

Well Said!
It kind of negates the need for preaching,hearing,and repentance doesn't it ?

How sad to think that Calvinists believe there is no choice. That God has decided before time who will or will not accept JESUS AS THEIR PERSONAL SAVIOR!

Where is the Love ,when we are not free to choose? Was Cain without choice? was he predestined to go wandering? Could he not have brought an acceptable sacrifice?
And not murdered his brother...

 

[TCGreek]

So, even if you don't believe there is a God, and you are a complete atheist, no faith whatsoever. WoW! you are saved!!!!, in

an instant with no knowledge it was taking place. You are the dumbest of the dumb, the deadest of the dead, but WoW!, you

are saved. That sure makes a lot of sense for the preachers to go throughout the whole world and preach "repent and turn

from your sins and believe in Jesus Christ and receive Salvation". What a waste of time for those preachers.

Men, raise up from their bar stool, push their prostitute away and say "I am saved".

The adulterer, gets up and says, "I am saved".

The murderer makes his kill and as he is leaving says, "I am saved"

No, climbing up on rooftops and lowering the sick down to the Saviour.

No, suffering and turning to the Lord for Salvation.

No, Godly sorrow set up in the heart, which works repentance.

No, cleansing of the hands, or the inside so the outside becomes clean.

Nothing, just drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may or may not be saved.
unbelieveable. IMO

Why should anyone listen to a Calvinist preacher? By your own theology, you can't help anyone, you can not lead anyone to Christ, You cannot hasten their Salvation in anyway what so ever. What does it do for you to preach to people, are you afraid the free-willers might get one. Well, if your theology is correct, no one can get one of yours, not even you, so why do you preach.
Why do you try so hard to convince people that the freewillers are wrong, what harm does it do to your people. How can we harm them in anyway whatsoever. What good does it do to get into debates to try and convince me or others that Calvinism is the correct theology, what does it matter if all is already set. You should not get into heated debates if you believe it is already set who is God's children. By getting into heated debates, you waste your time, for if you convinced someone to believe your way and he is not the "elect", he still will die and go to hell. What is your purpose in life as preachers?

1.As a Calvinist preacher, I take courage and comfort in texts like:

2. Acts 18:9, 10: "And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, "Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people." Acts 18:9-10 (ESV)

3. 1 Cor 3: "What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth."1 Cor 3:5-7 (ESV)

4. Why blame the Calvinist for preaching these truths of Scripture? Christ says he has his people in a particular city; Paul who preached the gospel says that he was but a messenger and God was the one who causes growth.

 

[Brother Bob]

That was not the question. The question is that if God picks who and the time, what does preaching change in anyway. What do you have to offer say, my children. If they are the elect, they will come, if they are not and you persuade them to come, then they will be hypocrits on their way to hell. That is the theology of the Calvinist.
What have I said in this post that is wrong, please help me to understand?
Please give me a reason for preaching to even the elect who are out there, for they can not come until God adds them. I am at a lost here, can you help me understand.

7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything

but only God who gives the growth

I know this seems like a hard attack, but it needs to be answered for the sake of the Calvinist, if their theology is true.

 

[TCGreek]

That was not the question. The question is that if God picks who and the time, what does preaching change in anyway. What do you have to offer say, my children. If they are the elect, they will come, if they are not and you persuade them to come, then they will be hypocrits on their way to hell. That is the theology of the Calvinist.
What have I said in this post that is wrong, please help me to understand?
Please give me a reason for preaching to even the elect who are out there, for they can not come until God adds them. I am at a lost here, can you help me understand.

7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything

but only God who gives the growth

I know this seems like a hard attack, but it needs to be answered for the sake of the Calvinist, if their theology is true.

1. Bob, God has ordained that preaching is the means of calling out the elect (1 Cor 1:18-26; 1 Thess. 1:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14).

2. George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Haddon Spurgeon and Adoniram Judson were all convinced Calvinists who were on fire for the Lord to save souls.

3. In fact, when asked why preach if he believes in unconditional election, Spurgeon said that if the elect would just take up their T-shirts and show him the E sign, then he wouldn't have to preach.

4. But God has ordain his means of calling the elect--preaching.

 

[Brother Bob]

1. Bob, God has ordained that preaching is the means of calling out the elect (1 Cor 1:18-26; 1 Thess. 1:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14).

2. George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Haddon Spurgeon and Adoniram Judson were all convinced Calvinists who were on fire for the Lord to save souls.

3. In fact, when asked why preach if he believes in unconditional election, Spurgeon said that if the elect would just take up their T-shirts and show him the E sign, then he wouldn't have to preach.

4. But God has ordain his means of calling the elect--preaching.

TC;
You may not believe me, but I do not like having to take such a hard stance against Calvinism, but lately there has been thread after threat against so called Free-Wills. Even songs against them poems. It is starting to get to be a little much. Slur after Slur in almost ever thread from the Calvinist in mockery of so called Free-Willers.

You have given the answers from several well known Calvinist preachers, who were "on fire" for the Lord to save souls. You admitted in the last post though you sowed another watered it was nothing. It took God to save them. I would like to ask you a question. All those preachers you listed and the people who were saved in their time. Would they have been saved without those preachers anyway?

 

[TCGreek]

TC;
You may not believe me, but I do not like having to take such a hard stance against Calvinism, but lately there has been thread after threat against so called Free-Wills. Even songs against them poems. It is starting to get to be a little much. Slur after Slur in almost ever thread from the Calvinist in mockery of so called Free-Willers.

You have given the answers from several well known Calvinist preachers, who were "on fire" for the Lord to save souls. You admitted in the last post though you sowed another watered it was nothing. It took God to save them. I would like to ask you a question. All those preachers you listed and the people who were saved in their time. Would they have been saved without those preachers anyway?

1. Bob, I'm truly sorry that you feel like there's an attack on non-Calvinists with slurs and such like. We are wrong for doing that.

2. No one is saved without the preaching of the gospel. We both know that. Therefore, those people would not have been saved.

3. But let's not dwell on "What If." Rather, let's thank God for saving peoples of all tribe, nation, and tongue.

 

[Brother Bob]

TC;
1. Bob, I'm truly sorry that you feel like there's an attack on non-Calvinists with slurs and such like. We are wrong for doing that.

2. No one is saved without the preaching of the gospel. We both know that. Therefore, those people would not have been saved.

3. But let's not dwell on "What If." Rather, let's thank God for saving peoples of all tribe, nation, and tongue.

My Brother, that is a very good answer, with love I answer you.

BBob

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Your sanctimony is almost unbearable. Good grief pal, save it will ya? If your ears are so tender and your constitution so weak that even the most mild analogous jab offends you so greatly it is not I that needs mercy my friend but you who need some seasoning.

May the mercy and grace of Christ be with you.

 

[Rippon]

BB , your post #88 takes the cake . you ought to be more familiar with what Calvinism is by now than to denigrate it with all those absurd charges . Or , perhaps , you want to still feign ignorance . TC hit the nail on the head earlier . The Lord works through means . Means BB , like preaching , teaching , prayer et cetera .

In the 1689 London Confession of Faith ( which was Baptistic ) it has this brief section . This is from chapter 5 on Divine Providence , article 3 : God , in his ordinary Providence , maketh use of means , yet is free to work without , above , and against them at his pleasure .

 

[Brother Bob]

BB , your post #88 takes the cake . you ought to be more familiar with what Calvinism is by now than to denigrate it with all those absurd charges . Or , perhaps , you want to still feign ignorance . TC hit the nail on the head earlier . The Lord works through means . Means BB , like preaching , teaching , prayer et cetera .

In the 1689 London Confession of Faith ( which was Baptistic ) it has this brief section . This is from chapter 5 on Divine Providence , article 3 : God , in his ordinary Providence , maketh use of means , yet is free to work without , above , and against them at his pleasure .

Thats our doctrine "through means", your doctrine is before the foundation of the world it was all fixed up.
You can preach all you want, and you will not gain "one" who is not an "elect" in your theology, and the "elect" is chosen and sitting there waiting for you.

Rippon: The Lord works through means . Means BB , like preaching , teaching , prayer et cetera, and believing. added by me.

Eph 1:13In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So, God is free to work without, above and against them at His pleasure. Does that mean some of the non-elect might have a
chance?

This says, that He does not need you at all.
7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything

but only God who gives the growth


Which is it, God or "means"?

1. Did God save the "elect" before the foundation of the world?

2. Did God Save the "elect" by "means" at repentance ?

Make it clear so we can understand will you Rippon?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Thats our doctrine "through means", your doctrine is before the foundation of the world it was all fixed up.
You can preach all you want, and you will not gain "one" who is not an "elect" in your theology, and the "elect" is chosen and sitting there waiting for you.


Eph 1:13In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So, God is free to work without, above and against them at His pleasure. Does that mean some of the non-elect might have a
chance?

This says, that He does not need you at all.
7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything

but only God who gives the growth


Which is it, God or "means"?

To add to what Rippon had mentioned concerning the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, which if read, you would not have a question:

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.