• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Faith is from Christ to the Elect

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
savedbymercy said:
dw


No its not. Its value is proportioned to the extinct of saving who it saved !

His Punishment for sin was meted out to the degree that He suffered enough for only those God had given Him !


Now could it had been valued suffcient to save all men without exception ? Sure , If that would have been God's Purposed, but it was not !
Click to expand...

So, eternity of suffering of one sinner can be measured exactly? Hence, billions of humans suffering eternally can be measured exactly?

He would have had to suffer exactly what he suffered on the cross if he saved only ONE sinner from an eternity of suffering. The extent is the same -eternal. The intensity of suffering of all finite humans and all demons together could not equal the suffering of Christ simply because of who He is - infinite.
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Biblicist, what exactly was accomplished by the suffering and death of Christ on the cross? Were any sins literally paid for?
Click to expand...

Come on, you know what I believe as I have already stated it. He efficiently satisfied the complete demand of the law against the elect - paid in full and thus obtained what God had sent him to do - "it is finished" or "paid in full."

God's purpose, God's provision and God's application cannot be seperated and dissected to make each stand alone from the other as SBG attempts to do. God purposed to redeem the elect, God provided the payment to redeem the elect and God actually applied the payment in time and space redeeming the elect.
 
S

savedbymercy

New Member
the bib

So, eternity of suffering of one sinner can be measured exactly?
Click to expand...

Yes, are there not going to be degrees of punishment in Hell ? Scriptures that seem to indicate that are Lk 12:46-47

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

What does it mean HIS PORTION ? The word portion means:

a part

a) a part due or assigned to one

b) lot, destiny

2) one of the constituent parts of a whole

a) in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree, as respects a part, severally, individually

Also some will be beaten with many stripes and some with few stripes. This is speaking of eternal damnation you know !

Now just as each non elect had their punishment measured out in God's Exactness, so it was with Christ, God's Justice was measured out for the sins of each individual elect !

Jer 13:25

This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the LORD; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood.

Jer 30:11

For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Thats a Divine Principle in the Character of God's Justice !
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
savedbymercy said:
the bib



Yes, are there not going to be degrees of punishment in Hell ? Scriptures that seem to indicate that are Lk 12:46-47

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

What does it mean HIS PORTION ? The word portion means:

a part

a) a part due or assigned to one

b) lot, destiny

2) one of the constituent parts of a whole

a) in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree, as respects a part, severally, individually

Also some will be beaten with many stripes and some with few stripes. This is speaking of eternal damnation you know !

Now just as each non elect had their punishment measured out in God's Exactness, so it was with Christ, God's Justice was measured out for the sins of each individual elect !

Jer 13:25

This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the LORD; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood.

Jer 30:11

For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Thats a Divine Principle in the Character of God's Justice !
Click to expand...

It can't be measured in extent because all are equal in extent - eternal

It can't be measured in finite suffering because He who suffered was infinite and therefore all the finite suffering of all the finite creatures ever created could not be compared or measured in suffering to the suffering of an Infinite God.

Hence, what Christ suffered as One who is INFINITE exceeds all finite suffering combined.
 
D

DaChaser1

New Member
savedbymercy said:
dac



Thats a lie, Christ met the requirement to God in order for God to forgive sins for those Christ died for ! You are promoting a works salvation, its not of God ! And you are teaching against Christ !
Click to expand...

you actually receive the benefits of being elected by God ONLY when you place your faith into jesus and get saved!
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
Biblicist: Come on, you know what I believe as I have already stated it. He efficiently satisfied the complete demand of the law against the elect - paid in full and thus obtained what God had sent him to do - "it is finished" or "paid in full."
Click to expand...


HP: The most important factor in what you are saying is that it yields the precise same ends as any other run of the mill Calvinist. Determinism/fatalism is what it is no matter how one tries to change the verbiage. The ends remain the same. Your view necessitates double predestination.

If it is as you say and no satisfaction was ever made for any sin but that of the elect, there is no possibility whatsoever that any but a select elect could ever have been saved. It necessitates the damned as the damned, for no atonement was made on their behalf period, again making it an impossibility for them to receive eternal life under any circumstances. That is pure unadulterated deterministic fatalism period no matter how you slice it. It is pointless for you to be finding fault with anyone else's fatalistic views when yours have precisely the same end, and the end is in reality all that matters.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
D

DaChaser1

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: The most important factor in what you are saying is that it yields the precise same ends as any other run of the mill Calvinist. Determinism/fatalism is what it is no matter how one tries to change the verbiage. The ends remain the same. Your view necessitates double predestination.

If it is as you say and no satisfaction was ever made for any sin but that of the elect, there is no possibility whatsoever that any but a select elect could ever have been saved. It necessitates the damned as the damned, for no atonement was made on their behalf period, again making it an impossibility for them to receive eternal life under any circumstances. That is pure unadulterated deterministic fatalism period no matter how you slice it. It is pointless for you to be finding fault with anyone else's fatalistic views when yours have precisely the same end, and the end is in reality all that matters.
Click to expand...

Difference from most cals and yourself is that we take what God said in the word about this as the basis for our belief, while you tend to use human reasoning and logic to make what seems fair and right as the basis!
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
Dachaser1, it is one thing to say something and a whole different thing to show evidence of your position. Show us the evidence of your remarks. Scripture in no wise makes the case for the Calvinist or those like Biblicist leaning hard towards Calvinisim. They have their theories just as do all others.
 
D

DaChaser1

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Dachaser1, it is one thing to say something and a whole different thing to show evidence of your position. Show us the evidence of your remarks. Scripture in no wise makes the case for the Calvinist or those like Biblicist leaning hard towards Calvinisim. They have their theories just as do all others.
Click to expand...

adam died spiritually by the fall, ALL after him reckoned by God as being found "dead inAdam"

So ALL are sinners who also chose to sin...

those saved by Grace of God reckoned as ince again spiritually alive, found by God to now be "in Christ"

Sinners by nature refuse to come to Christ to get saved, as they prefer to stay in darkness, as sin natures refuse to obey God, so God HAS to enable those chosen by him to get saved the means to to be even able to want and to get saved!
 
S

savedbymercy

New Member
DaChaser1 said:
you actually receive the benefits of being elected by God ONLY when you place your faith into jesus and get saved!
Click to expand...

Thats a Lie, thats works salvation ! God gives the benefits of Christ's death to those who Christ died for based upon Christ fulfilling all conditions.
 
D

DaChaser1

New Member
savedbymercy said:
Thats a Lie, Faith is a benefit of Christ saving one ! You are teaching works !
Click to expand...

God supplies us the required faith, so Its Him "working", per irrestible Grcae, we stilll MUST believe on Him to get saved!

WHAT verse in NT supports being saved by jesus apart from placing faith in him?
 
S

savedbymercy

New Member
DHK said:
Faith is not a work!
Click to expand...

It is to, its an act of obedience ! Rom 16:26

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

If you are saved by your obedience, thats works !
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
savedbymercy said:
It is to, its an act of obedience ! Rom 16:26

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

If you are saved by your obedience, thats works !
Click to expand...
"Faith" is used in two different senses.
As a verb it is not a work. But it is not used as a verb in Rom.16:26.
Faith is never a work.

Romans 16:26 is much like Romans 1:5
Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
--It is the same expression.
The expression refers "to the faith," that is, that body of doctrine which we have, the Bible, and propagate to others. We call it Christianity. It is our faith. Their obedience to their faith was known among all nations. Faith (as a verb means trust, confidence). One cannot obey trust. The verse does not make sense using faith in that sense. Here, as in 16:28, faith means "body of faith" or body of doctrine which we believe.
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
DHK: Faith is never a work.
Click to expand...
HP: You fail on two accounts. First, you fail to recognize that works are thought of in two distinct manners amnd is not limited to only one idea as you clearly express it is. Secondly, faith involves an act of the will precisely as all works do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top