Faith is from Christ to the Elect

[DHK]

Secondly, faith involves an act of the will precisely as all works do.

This is the only aspect of faith that we have been looking at so your other point is moot.
Besides that, a book is not work is it. Faith is a body of doctrine, as in the Bible. That is the other definition of faith. Jude says: "Contend for the faith." IOW, fight the good fight of faith; stand up for the Bible. Preach the Word of God. Defend the faith. Defend the Bible. Look HP, whatever you may think, the Bible, a book (perhaps the Book of books) is not a verb, and is not a "work." I could use some pretty good adjectives and nouns here that would describe a "fool" but I won't. But any__________can see that.

Now the word we are discussing is the verb for faith which is "believe" or "have faith."
"Believe" on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Is to have faith on Christ or to believe in him a work.

If I believe you, will you pay me for my "belief." How much will you pay me for my work of "believing"? How much is my faith worth to you? How many calories did I spend by "believing." How are you defining faith or belief as a work and when it cannot in any way be defined as a work? What will you pay me for this work?

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Abraham was not justified by works, not any work. He was justified by faith, which is not a work.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--To the person who works a reward is deserved, not of grace, but because it is owed to him. People don't work for nothing. They work for a wage. And at the end of the week they want to be paid. They don't want grace--a gift. They want what they deserve, what they worked for.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Faith is not a work. To him that does no work at all but simply has faith on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith is not a work. It is clear here. To him that works not, but simply believes.
It is evident that faith is not a work. The Bible makes that abundantly clear.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Oh I forgot. It does not associate works with faith....... when it speaks of "dead" faith.

"Faith without works is dead being alone."

 

[DHK]

Oh I forgot. It does not associate works with faith....... when it speaks of "dead" faith.

"Faith without works is dead being alone."

You are off topic. Answer my post instead of running helter skelter to other Scriptures. You sound like a J.W.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Faith is indeed the topic DHK. If you desire to accuse one of being off topic, accuse yourself. I simply was resonding to your comments in your post on this thread concerning faith that were not according to truth. :thumbsup:

 

[JonC]

thats works salvation ! God gives the benefits of Christ's death to those who Christ died for based upon Christ fulfilling all conditions.

What was stated was "beneifts" - the elect are saved by grace through faith and not of themselves. They are not saved without faith. How do you defend calling a brother a lier for believing that the elect are saved by grace through faith?

 

[DHK]

Faith is indeed the topic DHK. If you desire to accuse one of being off topic, accuse yourself. I simply was resonding to your comments in your post on this thread concerning faith that were not according to truth.

I went through Romans chapter four, showing convincingly how faith is not a work. You never responded to that. Why? You cannot refute it.

 

[JonC]

Faith is a benefit of Christ saving one ! You are teaching works !

How do you defend calling another Christian a liar for stating that we are saved by grace through faith? That this faith is an important element of salvation?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Works are thought of in two senses not one. More later.

 

[JonC]

That's a lie

DAC was saying that God provided the grace for men to believe. For God to provide the faith does not mean that faith is not required or that atonement is not applied. If it were not required, why would so much of scripture say otherwise, and why would God provide it?

Why on earth would a Christian call someone a liar for stating this??? You may disagree in interpretation, but to go so far is a refelction of an unchrsitian attitude. I am not saying that we should judge anyone by their actions, we don't question people's faith in this forum regardless of the fruit exhibited.

But I for one do believe that we are saved by grace through faith - faith is absolutely necessary.

 

[DHK]

Works are thought of in two senses not one. More later.

One is a noun--the Bible.
The other is a verb. "to believe"
The latter is never a work. Of course the former isn't either, but even the simplest of people know that.

 

[JonC]

I may be wrong in speaking on the opinion of another and do not mean to represent the ideas of Heavenly Pilgrim, but James does contrast two faiths. They are not different in form, but they are in substance. One produces fruit, the other does not and is “dead and useless faith.”

James does present “works” in a different fashion as does Paul. Paul presents a works based salvation as false while James presents a faith that produces works as true. (Paul also states that we are alive in Christ for the purpose of good works, as He as predetermined).

 

[DHK]

I may be wrong in speaking on the opinion of another and do not mean to represent the ideas of Heavenly Pilgrim, but James does contrast two faiths. They are not different in form, but they are in substance. One produces fruit, the other does not and is “dead and useless faith.”

James does present “works” in a different fashion as does Paul. Paul presents a works based salvation as false while James presents a faith that produces works as true. (Paul also states that we are alive in Christ for the purpose of good works, as He as predetermined).

Faith is faith. Faith is never a work. There is no contradiction between Paul and James. James is demonstrating that genuine faith produces fruit. The object of one's faith must be Christ in Christianity. One may say they are Christians, but the object of their faith may be in something else. If the object of their faith is not in the atoning work of Christ they will not bear the fruit of a genuine believer.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

Faith is faith. Faith is never a work

yes it is a work. Its a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

This is contrasted to the works of the flesh Gal 5:

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Faith is a work or fruit of the Spirit !

If you say you are saved because of your faith, then you are saying you are saved by your works !

 

[JonC]

Faith is faith. Faith is never a work. There is no contradiction between Paul and James. James is demonstrating that genuine faith produces fruit. The object of one's faith must be Christ in Christianity. One may say they are Christians, but the object of their faith may be in something else. If the object of their faith is not in the atoning work of Christ they will not bear the fruit of a genuine believer.

Exactly, faith is faith and biblically it is NEVER a work. The difference between Paul and James is in the description of "work." Paul speaks against "works" towards salvation, but James speaks of "works" as evidence of faith. I hope you didn't take me to mean otherwise (that was not my intention).

Faith, as presented in the Bible, is contrasted with works. This is evident in the righteousness of Abraham. I don't think anyone who has read Paul's writings could ever mistake it for a work as it never presented as a work. I agree with you 100% on this. Rather than being a "work" it is the fruit of the Spirit, it is the grace of God in our lives. Paul goes to great measures contrasting the works of the flesh with the fruit of the spirit and offers this conclusion:

Galatians 5:22-24 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

The "works" that Christians produce, their fruit, is evidence of these fruits of the Spirit within their lives.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JonC: I may be wrong in speaking on the opinion of another and do not mean to represent the ideas of Heavenly Pilgrim, but James does contrast two faiths. They are not different in form, but they are in substance. One produces fruit, the other does not and is “dead and useless faith.”

James does present “works” in a different fashion as does Paul. Paul presents a works based salvation as false while James presents a faith that produces works as true. (Paul also states that we are alive in Christ for the purpose of good works, as He as predetermined).

HP: Works are thought of in two senses. Paul was speaking of works in one sense, and James was speaking of works in yet another sense. Paul in Romans chapter 4 was addressing works as it is related to the grounds of salvation, whereas James was addressing works as it is related to fulfilling the conditions of salvation or the obedience faith demands.

So we are not saved by works, if one is addressing the grounds of our salvation, for nothing we can or will do will in any way design a plan or contrive the means by which to save ourselves. Still yet, God has set forth conditions of salvation such as repentance and faith, that are indeed works the will of man must form intents to comply with without which no man shall be saved.

Conclusion: Works of man are both involved and not involved in salvation, depending if you are speaking of works of obedience to the stated conditions God has mandated for man to comply with in order to be forgiven, or if one is speaking of the grounds by which we are saved including the plan and means by which God has chosen to redeem us by, in which no work of man is involved in the least.

 

[DHK]

If you say you are saved because of your faith, then you are saying you are saved by your works !

It is a fruit of the Spirit, which makes it spiritual, like love, joy, and peace.
In the same way I challenge you about faith, I will ask you about love, joy, and peace. Will you employ me and pay me for having love, joy, and peace. What will you pay me? How much? How much will you pay me for my faith?
Does all this make sense to you?
If they were works they would make sense as works. Those religions that are works-based one would be able to pay for the labor involved--the good works that people do: doing good for their neighbor, visiting the sick, shoveling the snow, cutting the grass, even more spiritual things like spending time in prayer and time reading in prayer. Those are all things that a person could be paid for. They are tangibles.

Faith is not a work; it is an intangible which cannot be measured or defined as a work.

 

[DHK]

Conclusion: Works of man are both involved and not involved in salvation, depending if you are speaking of works of obedience to the stated conditions God has mandated for man to comply with in order to be forgiven, or if one is speaking of the grounds by which we are saved including the plan and means by which God has chosen to redeem us by, in which no work of man is involved in the least.

Salvation is the free gift of God.
There are no conditions to receiving God's free gift.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Faith is indeed a work, for faith cannot be accomplished apart from an act of the will, in precisely the same manner all works are first formed, i.e., by an act of the will.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

Faith is not a work;

Faith is a work, its an act of obedience ! If you say you are saved because you have faith, you are promoting salvation by works, by keeping a commandment ! You are also denying that Christ death alone saved you !

 

[DHK]

Faith is indeed a work, for faith cannot be accomplished apart from an act of the will, in precisely the same manner all works are first formed, i.e., by an act of the will.

That is precisely why it isn't a work. An act of the will isn't a work. How is an act of the will a work.

I can sit in my chair and allow my will to daydream all day. Is that work?