Faith is not a choice

[kyredneck]

I think he did...

He definitely seen you coming.

... but based on how you rip it from context don't know how you can.

What context is that webdog? The lame attempt to relegate the application of it to the Jews only?

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

 

[Inspector Javert]

He was not persuaded.

To become a Christian, no...to "believe"...yes.

He sent Paul away to KEEP from being persuaded against his will.

Yes, to be persuaded to actually repent but not to "believe"....Paul said that he ALREADY DID.

He knew, apparently, that if Paul continued to make his case, Paul would persuade him.

He "knew" that, or "thought" that....because if he "knew" that, then, I would submit that that flies in the face of Calvinist Theology.

 

[Iconoclast]

Faith is an instrumentality.
Saving faith is A grace gift.
Once given at regeneration. we exercise it.We choose to exercise it in the promises of the word.We act in the obedience of faith....we being made willing choose to do this...

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we are called to be saints.....to the Faith.....that body of truth we are called to believe....but in the exercise of obeying the word we exercise faith in God and His lawful commands to us. WE choose to do this as the reigning power of sin has been broken in our lives.

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

Colossians 3:17
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.


Whatever you do...in word or deed is a choice.God works are wrought in us by The word and Spirit conforming us to the Image of Jesus.

I agree with Heralds post.

 

[InTheLight]

Faith is an instrumentality.
Saving faith is A grace gift.
Once given at regeneration. we exercise it.

Bible disagrees with you.

When Jesus healed the Roman centurion's servant in Matthew 8 he said,

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.

If faith is a grace gift from God, why is Jesus marveling at this centurion's faith? Why does he heal his servant because "he believed"?

The woman from Caanan whose daughter had a demon. Jesus said,

“O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Matt 15:28

Jesus says she had great faith. According to your saving faith as a gift theology, some must have greater saving faith than others, hmmm?


The woman that touched the hem of Jesus' garment--you are saying God gave her faith so she could touch Jesus' clothes and be saved?

22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

The one leper, a Samaritan, the only one of the ten healed of leprosy that returned to give praise, Jesus says,

19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Faith is not a gift. Salvation is the gift. Faith is "found" in people. People have faith. Some have more faith than others.

 

[webdog]

He definitely seen you coming.



What context is that webdog? The lame attempt to relegate the application of it to the Jews only?

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

I'm not rabbit trailing further from the topic of faith. Your disdain for Israel and the Jewish people is already noted on this board.

 

[webdog]

Bible disagrees with you.

When Jesus healed the Roman centurion's servant in Matthew 8 he said,

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.

If faith is a grace gift from God, why is Jesus marveling at this centurion's faith? Why does he heal his servant because "he believed"?

The woman from Caanan whose daughter had a demon. Jesus said,

“O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Matt 15:28

Jesus says she had great faith. According to your saving faith as a gift theology, some must have greater saving faith than others, hmmm?


The woman that touched the hem of Jesus' garment--you are saying God gave her faith so she could touch Jesus' clothes and be saved?

22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

The one leper, a Samaritan, the only one of the ten healed of leprosy that returned to give praise, Jesus says,

19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Faith is not a gift. Salvation is the gift. Faith is "found" in people. People have faith. Some have more faith than others.

Let's also add the many times He became frustrated by a lack of faith. Makes absolutely no sense in the 'gift of faith' model as He would become frustrated with the lack of faith He didn't give. The caldeterminist makes God out to be bipolar.

 

[Iconoclast]

InTheLight

Bible disagrees with you.

No...you might disagree with me, but the bible does not.

When Jesus healed the Roman centurion's servant in Matthew 8 he said,

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.

If faith is a grace gift from God, why is Jesus marveling at this centurion's faith? Why does he heal his servant because "he believed"?

The woman from Caanan whose daughter had a demon. Jesus said,

“O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Matt 15:28

Jesus comments were instructive....they exercised God given faith. We are to exercise it. Not all men have faith,

Jesus says she had great faith. According to your saving faith as a gift theology, some must have greater saving faith than others, hmmm?

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

The woman that touched the hem of Jesus' garment--you are saying God gave her faith so she could touch Jesus' clothes and be saved?

Yes.....

22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

The one leper, a Samaritan, the only one of the ten healed of leprosy that returned to give praise, Jesus says,

19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Yes...notice Jesus asked...where are the nine??? they were fully responsible.

Faith is not a gift. Salvation is the gift. Faith is "found" in people. People have faith. Some have more faith than others.

Repentance and faith are grace gifts that are given at regeneration.

2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

 

[kyredneck]

.....Your disdain for Israel and the Jewish people is already noted on this board.

My disdain is for the idolatry, the Golden Calf of the dispies.

...and this cheap smear is the best you've got to respond to Ro 9:24?

 

[percho]

He was not persuaded.

He sent Paul away to KEEP from being persuaded against his will.

He knew, apparently, that if Paul continued to make his case, Paul would persuade him.

We are supposed to believe, as Christians, in salvation by grace through FAITH.

Faith is not a choice. Everything you have REAL faith in- you did not CHOOSE to have faith in it. It simply persuaded you to believe in it.

Now, we can say the words, "I choose to believe that Jesus is Lord," but they are just words if we have not been persuaded that it is so.

If we HAVE been persuaded that it is so, then we did not "choose" to believe- we were persuaded to believe.

I believe he wasn't persuaded because he was not of my sheep.

 

[percho]

? FAITH ?

Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Tim 1:9

Meaning of that verse is. Before Adam was created God had determined to created a being in His image subject to death through which he could bring forth into the world His Son by which those He called could be redeemed that is saved. This was determined before the world began. I would say before it was said let there be light.

Prior to a certain point in time this was known it would take place but had yet to be demonstrated. Verb
1. Clearly show the existence or truth of (something) by giving proof or evidence.

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Tim. 1:10 By the Son of God being born of a woman taken from the man Adam made in the image of God and that Son giving his life as a ransom and then God His Father giving Him life again from the dead, death will be shown to be abolished and it will be shown that life can be given again.

Actually that verse says that in Christ death that brings corruption has been abolished and life to the dead and incorruption is brought to light, that is clearly shown. Demonstrated.

The word of God, the truth, calls this Faith. Faith is not what you believe. Faith is what took place that demonstrates the truth. You believe because of faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Life and incorruption was hoped for, see Job 19:26 and is demonstrated that it will take place in the faith (substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen) of truth by which you also received the earnest of the Spirit showing God has this selfsame thing wrought for us. Setting us apart to receive the same life and incorruption of which His Son received.

That is the meaning of 2 Thess 2:13 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of [the] Lord, that God has chosen you from [the] beginning to salvation in sanctification of [the] Spirit and belief (faith) of [the] truth: Darby

Sanctification of Spirit and faith (belief) of truth;

We have received as a gift from God the Spirit of truth, the Comforter as faith (belief) of truth.

Comfort one another with these words.

The faith of truth: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor. 15: 3,4 The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thes. 4:13,14

 

[Inspector Javert]

2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

This verse reinforces PRECISELY what ITL said...."All men HAVE NOT faith".....your Calvinist spectacles are causing you to think that this says "All men ARE NOT GIVEN faith."

You are so steeped in your tradition that you will quote a verse which directly opposes your position and supports his, and yet you honestly believe that it supports it!

Uncanny.

 

[InTheLight]

Jesus comments were instructive....they exercised God given faith. We are to exercise it.

Bible says that Jesus FOUND FAITH in these people. He marveled at the faith he found in the centurion. If Jesus gave the centurion his faith, why would he marvel at something he did for him?

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Verse is about degree of faith used to prophesy, not saving faith.

Yes...notice Jesus asked...where are the nine???

Jesus healed all ten lepers. Presumably all ten had faith that Jesus could "make them whole". But only one returned to thank Jesus.

they were fully responsible.

Yes, and no one said they were not.

Repentance and faith are grace gifts that are given at regeneration.

Yes, I suppose since the Bible does not say this, it is helpful to continually assert it. If you do so, it will seem as if it truly is in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Yes, and no one has said that all men have faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

This verse reinforces PRECISELY what ITL said...."All men HAVE NOT faith".....your Calvinist spectacles are causing you to think that this says "All men ARE NOT GIVEN faith."

You are so steeped in your tradition that you will quote a verse which directly opposes your position and supports his, and yet you honestly believe that it supports it!

Uncanny.

The problem with you analysis is that the New Testament clearly and repeatedly affirms that saving "faith" is a GIFT from God and so NO MAN IS BORN WITH IT and gifts must be given and until they are given none have it.

Jesus is explicitly said to be the "author" of faith and thus faith is "the work of God" (Jn. 6:29) as the Author is the one from which something originate with and from. Thus salvation is not separable from faith and thus "IT is a gift of God and NOT OF YOURSELVES" (Eph. 2:8). Take note of the perfect tense periphrastic construct which demands a completed action in the past carried forward to the present thus demanding "through faith" was coextensive with that action - making it inseparable with that action or else one is not saved "THROUGH" faith. That proves faith is included in the whole action and "IT IS A GIFT OF GOD and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES". It is also proves it occurs in the CREATIVE work of God as it is this "saved by grace through faith" that is the antecedent for the words "HIS WORKMANSHIP CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS."

 

[kyredneck]

...Jesus is explicitly said to be the "author" of faith and thus faith is "the work of God" (Jn. 6:29) as the Author is the one from which something originate with and from....

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Ro 3

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3:9

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8

 

[DHK]

You do not CHOOSE to believe things. You are persuded by information that enters your sphere of observation to believe in things.

Take gravity for example. Do you anchor yourself to the earth everyday in fears that gravity will give way and the centripetal force of earth's spinning will hurl you out into space?
No.
You have put your faith in gravity and your life shows it.

When did you CHOOSE to put your faith in gravity?

Never.

I haven't read this entire thread but started here with the OP, so I don't know what has already been said.
First, there are still people that are members of a Flat Earth Society and believe the earth is flat. That is relevant because you can have knowledge and reject it.
I am sure that there are others that are either ignorant of the law of gravity (tribal people in Africa), or like the Flat Earth Society, silly enough to deny it.
They can know about it and choose to deny it.

You have no CHOICE BUT to believe in it. The information you have received CAUSES you to believe in it.

Knowledge leads to choice. The knowledge one has can lead to a denial of faith. That is what atheism is. Belief in "no god."

Try as you may, you cannot now choose to STOP believing in it.

You can't believe in what you don't choose to be true.

Faith is not a choice. It is something that happens to us caused by information that enters our minds and persuades us.

It must persuade us. The resurrection does not persuade very many people, thus few are saved. Many are afraid to fly. No amount of logic will convince them that it is safe to fly. They aren't "persuaded." They don't have faith. They have information, but not faith.

That's one of the many reasons Calvinism presents a much better soteriology than other theologies.

It is consistent with the the invincible fact that faith is NOT a choice.

Your premise has been shown to be faulty. There is always a choice to reject that which one does not believe. Information alone does not convince.

The problem with non-cal soteriology is that it teaches that we are saved by grace through choice.

What does the record say about Abraham:
Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--There is the definition of faith: being fully persuaded (a choice) that what God had promised (information) he was able to do.

But the Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through FAITH.

Yes, "by grace through faith." Faith involves a choice based on information.

 

[Inspector Javert]

The problem with you analysis is that the New Testament clearly and repeatedly affirms that saving "faith" is a GIFT from God

O.K.....maybe...but that is irrelevant to what I said to Icon. The point I made to Icon is that his verse says something which implies (at least in a vacuum) something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from what he said. "Have" is a perfect form...in other words...it's already a done deal....the object ALREADY possesses it.....Icon's problem is that he inserted that pre-supposition INTO a text which implies...at least by itself... precisely the opposite.

and so NO MAN IS BORN WITH IT

Who here believes that any man is "born" with it???????

Jesus is explicitly said to be the "author" of faith

Yes he is. So what.

and thus faith is "the work of God" (Jn. 6:29)

As compared to making physical food for hungry people yes.....but you are divorcing that verse from Jesus' OBVIOUS intention the way you are using it....Jesus is telling PEOPLE to have "faith"....not proving that faith is a construct of God alone...see the immediate context:
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Notice how verse 28 PRECEDES vs. 29??...They are asking what THEY can do. What was Jesus' answer?.... "To believe".

Granted...that's not "Calvinism"...but, it's the Bible.

as the Author is the one from which something originate with and from. Thus salvation is not separable from faith and thus "IT is a gift of God and NOT OF YOURSELVES" (Eph. 2:8). Take note of the perfect tense periphrastic construct which demands a completed action in the past carried forward to the present thus demanding "through faith" was coextensive with that action - making it inseparable with that action or else one is not saved "THROUGH" faith. That proves faith is included in the whole action and "IT IS A GIFT OF GOD and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES". It is also proves it occurs in the CREATIVE work of God as it is this "saved by grace through faith" that is the antecedent for the words "HIS WORKMANSHIP CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS."

Ummm....no. "Salvation" is the gift in Eph 2:8-9, not "faith". Sorry. No normative human being reading that passage at face value would think that that is what is being said. NO-ONE. Only a Calvinist already pre-disposed to believe that way would make this argument or interpret these verses this way.

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

The problem with you analysis is that the New Testament clearly and repeatedly affirms that saving "faith" is a GIFT from God and so NO MAN IS BORN WITH IT and gifts must be given and until they are given none have it.

Repeatedly?? PROVE IT. Prove that the Bible "REPEATEDLY" shows that faith is a gift.

Jesus is explicitly said to be the "author" of faith and thus faith is "the work of God" (Jn. 6:29) as the Author is the one from which something originate with and from. Thus salvation is not separable from faith and thus "IT is a gift of God and NOT OF YOURSELVES" (Eph. 2:8). Take note of the perfect tense periphrastic construct which demands a completed action in the past carried forward to the present thus demanding "through faith" was coextensive with that action - making it inseparable with that action or else one is not saved "THROUGH" faith. That proves faith is included in the whole action and "IT IS A GIFT OF GOD and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES". It is also proves it occurs in the CREATIVE work of God as it is this "saved by grace through faith" that is the antecedent for the words "HIS WORKMANSHIP CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS."

As usually, reading faith as a gift into Ephesias 2:8 when it clearly shows SALVATION is the gift, not faith. Funny you say that "all through the Bible faith is shown as a gift" and can't come up with more than ONE VERSE that you have to misintepret to prove it. If faith is a work (as you say by "it is the work of God according to John 6") and we are saved through faith, if faith is a work then that means we are SAVED THROUGH WORKS/FAITH.

The IT of Ephesians 2:8 is salvation. NOWHERE in the Bible is faith called a gift NOWHERE.

John 6 says nothing that faith is a work. Jesus is responding in the context of which the crowd asked the question just as He did with the Rich Young Ruler when the young man said "Good Master, what GOOD THING must I do" and Jesus said "Why callest thou me good? There is one good that is God". Was Jesus saying He wasn't God?? No, he was answering the question according to the way it was asked which is common Jewish conversation.

In John 6 they asked what they needed to do to "WORK THE WORKS of God". Jesus was CORRECTING their misunderstanding of works, not giving a doctrinal statement that faith is a work. In other words, if you want to do the works of God, you have to BELIEVE ON HIM FIRST and THEN you can do the works of God through His power.

"Professing themselves to be wise they became fools"

 

[The Biblicist]

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Ro 3

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3:9

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8

Thank you! Every single text illustrates and reinforces my points exactly and precisely. Thanks for the assist!

 

[kyredneck]

Repeatedly?? PROVE IT. Prove that the Bible "REPEATEDLY" shows that faith is a gift.....

Straight from your beloved KJV:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2014269#post2014269

 

[DrJamesAch]

Straight from your beloved KJV:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2014269#post2014269

Gift nor "doron" appear in ANY of those verses. NOT ONE TIME. These verse describe the distinction between faith in and of Christ from faith in self, the law, pagan deities or a doorknob. It says NOTHING about faith being a "gift", not once.