Faith "not of yourselves" Eph 2:8

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Don:
Yo, Taz: I suppose you make arrangements to pay for the Christmas and birthday gifts others give you?

I suppose he does choose to receive those gifts. If he wanted, I'm sure he could rather choose to refuse those gifts; or, later on, lose those gifts (through neglect) or else throw them away.

(But I'm sorry--I'll shut up now and let Taz speak for himself.)

 

[Jim1999]

I think all human analogies fall far short in a spiritual kingdom. Again, we must consider the realm of God and His sovereignty, and then man's domain, in His permissive will, where man has limited movement, but only under the out circle of God's sovereignty.

Like a railway track, the two run in parallel lines in the human realm, but global in the spiritual realm of eternity.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by steaver:
I want to start this from scratch by presenting a question.

How can faith in Jesus Christ come from anything that is me acting apart from God?

Everyday I live my life "knowing" that Jesus Christ is Lord. That is faith is it not? I don't have to think about it. I don't have to work it up from within. I have absolutely no control over the fact that I know Jesus Christ is God, my God. So how is this faith credited to me as though it is something I am generating from myself? As if i get up each morning and decide whether or not I am going to believe in Jesus today? It is just there all the time. I don't look for it. I don't say today your going to have faith steaver. It appears to me that I have no control over it. It is part of my life. I cannot stop believing in Jesus anymore than I can stop believing in me! Why do i hear "ye must continue to believe, ye must continue to believe"? How can I not? Does anybody else feel like they could ever stop "their" faith in Jesus? How? How can I stop believing that which I know is true??

God Bless!

Humblesmith is correct. TOUTO cannot refer to either PISTIS ("faith") nor can it refer to XARIS ("grace"). It is neuter while those nouns are feminine, and a pronoun must agree with its antecedent in gender. But we have no antecedent which agrees with it, neither prior nor following it. This is a demonstrative pronoun with adverbial force used in an explanatory phrase.

We can see a parallel between "not of yourselves" in vs. 8 and "not of works" in v 9 that leads us to ask, "What is Paul saying in not of yourselves and not of works?" I think he clearly is referring to "salvation," though that noun is not used. What Paul is saying is that "salvation is the gift of God."

Why did Paul use a neuter demonstrative pronoun here? Well, when referring to a main idea in a general way, it's quite common to use a neuter pronoun. IOW, if Paul had wanted to say,

"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this salvation we're talking about is not a result of works, it's a gift, so no one can boast about it."

The neuter pronoun would have been used.

Faith is best understood here as the response of people to the working of the Holy Spirit. When someone acknowledges that he is a sinner and in need of a Savior, how could that ever be understood as work? To recognize that we cannot save ourselves, and need Christ to save us is just the opposite of work... it is to give up striving to save ourselves, and represents the epitomy of non-work.

Faith is not like water which can be poured or clay which can be handled. So to say that God works to bring about faith in someone does not mean that the individual opened up a package and took out some faith. We cannot say, "I think I'll believe in Jesus Christ. Oh, I don't really in my mind accept it as a fact that He is supposed to have died for me, but I choose to believe in it anyway." Such would be ludricuous. God sent His Holy Spirit to convict men of sin and to enlighten darkened and depraved minds to the truth (John 16:8-11). God is at work in our lives and minds to cause us to consider truth. He illuminates truth. As we seek more truth, more light is given to us, and we eventually genuinely believe the gospel.

If faith is a gift and not a response, then people no longer bear any responsibility to believe the Gospel. Yet the Bible is filled with such appeals. But it can also be said that we will not believe the gospel unless God works to bring it about in our lives. To say otherwise is to ignore the condition of our hearts and minds as described in Romans 3.

FWIW,

FA

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by Don:
Yo, Taz: I suppose you make arrangements to pay for the Christmas and birthday gifts others give you?

Yep its called a relationship.

 

[Tazman]

Another problem with building a case to Support ones position OSAS is to go as far as to suggest that those who reject Christ and Turn back were never saved in the beginning. Because if they were they would have never left God. How could some one leave IF they truly had an encounter with God. That's impossible


GET A GRIP!!!

This has to be a self righteous arrogant Judgement on the apostles teachings.

You assume that "Oh, it didn't work because they didn't understand or really know GOD" . There are things we All understand and Know but yet we Don't care. We go the wrong route.

Let OSAS Judge Peter. He has seen more of Jesus than any of us, but he deserted Christ and yet was reinstated.

Let OSAS also Judge the writer of Hebrews Who can state FIRST HAND what is TRULY impossible for a person who has tasted the Heavenly Gift .

Heb 6: 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift , who have shared in the Holy Spirit , 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

The writer continues...

Verse 9-12 9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.


It seems that the Hebrew writer is careful to remind the people to "MAKE YOUR HOPE SURE" How? "BY SHOWING THIS SAME DILIGENCE" What "same Diligence? Your WORK and LOVE that you've shown him as you helped his people.

FAITH-WORK-LOVE, not being Lazy till the Very End. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Wait all! Disregard what I said because according to OSAS "repentance" is not applicable to those who know God and the GIFT and Heb 6:6 speaks about it and only none believers need to repent. We don't have to DO anything.

 

[Don]

Not really getting into this discussion; just saw a tone that I hope I'm mis-reading, which compelled me to post the following:

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Interesting distinction there, "believe to the saving of the soul."

Sorry for interrupting. I'm outta here.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Don:

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Interesting distinction there, "believe to the saving of the soul."

Of course, that believing needs to be ongoing--not something that may have happened once in one moment in time.

 

[Don]

Said I was leaving. Came back. I'm untrustworthy, and therefore nothing I say is worth a plug nickel (well, it wasn't worth a plug nickel to begin with, but it's worth less now

).

You're right; it needs to be on-going. But there are different types of belief. For example, James 2:19 tells us that the devils believe, and tremble. The passage of James 2 talks about showing your faith through your works; underscored by the statement that there are those that believe who are not saved.

Further defined when taken with Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

A belief to the saving of the soul creates a desire to produce works.

I don't mean to be contentious with anyone, or cause doubts, so I'm really outta here this time.

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Don:

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Interesting distinction there, "believe to the saving of the soul."

Of course, that believing needs to be ongoing--not something that may have happened once in one moment in time. </font>[/QUOTE]Doubting Thomas,

You may be surprised with this statement, but here's why I disagree with it:

If it must be ongoing, then it must be something we do, apparently, which makes it works. I look at it like this: when someone trusts in Christ, he is re-born, he becomes a new creature - God does it.

Once a person has trusted in Christ he becomes a child of God... if it was required that the faith be "on-going" then that would be saying that the labor is taking a long time. And honestly, don't we all struggle with out faith, have doubts, from time to time? In general a person is born physically at a point-in-time, and the same is true spiritually.

Do you see where I''m going with this? And can you explain your thinking regarding why the believer's faith must be ongoing?

Thx,

FA

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by Tazman:
It's called "Cheap Grace" The American way. Get something for nothing

Yeah baby

OSAS

And may I ask what "cheap grace" is supposed to mean?

Does that mean that Jesus' death in our behalf wasn't enough, so we have to add something to it?

Does it mean that faith alone doesn't save us, that works are required (again, Jesus' death on the cross was not enough to pay the penalty for our sin)?

Does it mean that Jesus' death didn't cover all of our sin?

Does it mean that we are not saved by grace alone, that works are required?

Does it mean that those who are trusting in Jesus Christ and Him alone to save them aren't doing enough?

Just what does it mean? Just what is expensive grace? Yeah, you ruffled my feathers. Grace is not cheap. It cost the Father His Son.

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His opwn Son, but gave Him up for us all, will He not also share all things with us?

Those who hold to salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone are simply refusing to compromise the gospel by adding works we can boast about to it.

You should feel uncomfortable to slam brothers with such a label. It's very insensitive to people for whom Christ died and makes light of the blood of Christ. Sorry... that's how I feel about it.

FA

 

[steaver]

Those who hold to salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone are simply refusing to compromise the gospel by adding works we can boast about to it.

I believe the Spirit of Truth is upon thee FA. Amen!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

bmerr said...

Fortunately, God does not demand perfection from us mere men.

How many times did Adam sin before God condemned him and he found himself in need for salvation?

Looks like perfection is what God demands.

Guess you can't make it without the blood of Jesus. Or is it the blood of Jesus plus YOUR almost perfect obedience that is saving YOU?

It is Jesus ALONE that is saving me.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Taz said...

It would seem to me that this epistle (specifically Rom 10:9) is written to believers not unbelievers and it should hardly be considered the bases to fully convert one who never was apart of Christ to Him for the first time.

This is the very core problem of many who set out to study the scriptures. The entire bible is written as to speak to ALL people, both saved and lost. I would venture to declare that every single congregation claiming faith in Jesus Christ will have many of meetings with unsaved folks sitting among them at different times throughout their history.

Paul tells "Christians" to examine themselves to see if Jesus Christ is really in them (that would be really saved). Is Paul speaking only to the saved here? Of course not. Paul knows that many of the "Christians" that he preaches to might very well not be Christians at all and need to do some re-evaluating of themselves.

The scriptures speak to the lost as well as the saved. Paul does not have the ability to know with absolute certainty that all who call themselves Christians are truly Christians. This is why God consistently has His apostles preach and write with many warnings (for the hearer, not necessarily always for the saved).

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

If faith is a gift and not a response, then people no longer bear any responsibility to believe the Gospel. Yet the Bible is filled with such appeals. But it can also be said that we will not believe the gospel unless God works to bring it about in our lives. To say otherwise is to ignore the condition of our hearts and minds as described in Romans 3.

FWIW,

FA

Ok, faith is my response, then I am reborn by God. Now how can my faith ever cease, seeing that God has entered into my being and has joined my spirit (quickened it) with His very own Spirit(one with Christ)? How could I ever stop having faith now that I have received evidence of a new birth and knowledge of a fact?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Interesting distinction there, "believe to the saving of the soul."

Sorry for interrupting. I'm outta here.

Right on Don. They always seem to gloss over verse 39...BUT...WE (true Christians) ARE NOT of them who draw back UNTO PERDITION (That means "total destruction"). True Christians do not draw back unto "perdition". This very verse indicates that the writer is warning those who are playing church.

God Bless!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Faith alone:
Do you see where I''m going with this? And can you explain your thinking regarding why the believer's faith must be ongoing?

Thx,

FA

Faith must be ongoing because we stand (present tense) by faith (see Romans 11:19-23). If we don't continue in the faith we'll be cut off from the vine.

So, yeah, faith-which-works-through-love (see Gal 5:6) is something we must do. Sure, none of us can do it without God's enabling power and grace, but it is we who still must be faithful. The Bible is full of exhortations to "stand firm", "hold fast", "abide", "keep", etc. While we need God's grace to have the power to do all these things, we're the ones that are commanded to do all the "holding" and "standing" and "abiding". It's completely unbiblical to teach that we are completely passive in the salvation process. (In other words, while Pelagianism is obviously wrong, so is monergism.)

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If faith is a gift and not a response, then people no longer bear any responsibility to believe the Gospel. Yet the Bible is filled with such appeals. But it can also be said that we will not believe the gospel unless God works to bring it about in our lives. To say otherwise is to ignore the condition of our hearts and minds as described in Romans 3.

FWIW,

FA

Ok, faith is my response, then I am reborn by God. Now how can my faith ever cease, seeing that God has entered into my being and has joined my spirit (quickened it) with His very own Spirit(one with Christ)? How could I ever stop having faith now that I have received evidence of a new birth and knowledge of a fact?

God Bless!</font>[/QUOTE]That's a good question. But we do see some appeals in scripture (Hebrews has a few, for one) in which Christians are encouraged to hang in there, and to continue to believe.

I can buy the argument that you make that since anyone in Christ is a new creature, and indwelt by the Spirit that he will continue to believe. But not all Christians continue to trust Christ in their daily lives. They trust in their own efforts. That's my concern. I probably did not make that very clear in my fervor. When we say that a genuine believer will trust in Christ that is essentially adding on the works of sanctified living to justification by grace alone through faith alone.

Will anyone who has been regenerated always believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. I would say, "yes," but I'm very careful how I say that so as not to make faith alone enot sufficient for us to gain eternal life.

Better?

FA

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Interesting distinction there, "believe to the saving of the soul."

Sorry for interrupting. I'm outta here.

Right on Don. They always seem to gloss over verse 39...BUT...WE (true Christians) ARE NOT of them who draw back UNTO PERDITION (That means "total destruction"). True Christians do not draw back unto "perdition". This very verse indicates that the writer is warning those who are playing church.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]And since this text is quoting the same OT text that Paul quoted in Romans 1:16 and which he applied to being justified, we should not interpret it in a sanctification manner.

But I don't think he is distinguishing between true Christians so much as pointing out that these Jewish believers were saved by faith alone, and to now strive to be justified or require the works of the law (context of chapter 10 is that the OT sacrificial system is gone) is very dangerous. He knew that these were genuine believers. His concern was their trying to go on in Christ through the works of the law.

FA

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Faith alone:
Do you see where I''m going with this? And can you explain your thinking regarding why the believer's faith must be ongoing?

Thx,

FA

Faith must be ongoing because we stand (present tense) by faith (see Romans 11:19-23). If we don't continue in the faith we'll be cut off from the vine.

So, yeah, faith-which-works-through-love (see Gal 5:6) is something we must do. Sure, none of us can do it without God's enabling power and grace, but it is we who still must be faithful. The Bible is full of exhortations to "stand firm", "hold fast", "abide", "keep", etc. While we need God's grace to have the power to do all these things, we're the ones that are commanded to do all the "holding" and "standing" and "abiding". It's completely unbiblical to teach that we are completely passive in the salvation process. (In other words, while Pelagianism is obviously wrong, so is monergism.) </font>[/QUOTE]DT,

I'm not saying that we are completely passive in the sense that we merely believe something to be fact. We are relying on Christ's death in our behalf to save us. Hope that's clear.

Pelagianism merely is to say that sin has not so tainted our natures that we need not be enabled by God IOT respond to the gospel. I'm not saying that. The general Baptist view of free agency does not say that.

Monergism teaches that God alone saves, so I see that you have some balance here - good. I'm trying to do the same.

But Romans 11:19ff is speaking corporately of the nation of Israel and the church in Rome full of Gentile believers, which was mostly Gentile in nature. In general, the nation of Israel had been "broken off" from the vine. They had a position of favored stance. But this does not mean that some specific Jew had stopped believing and was cut off from Christ. Similarly, it does not mean that a Christian is secure as long as he continues to believe.

The moment, the very moment, that a person believes the gospel - trusts in Christ - he is a new creature. He is born from above, God does it. And once done, it cannot be undone.

BTW, the present tense merely indicates, when not in the indicative mood, that something is linear in type of action, it says absolutely nothing about the duration of the action. It merely points out that in the present, it was a linear kind of action (not "continuous" - different idea - that's the extremely rare habitual present).

But in Romans 11:20 "stands" is ESTHKAS - which is not present tense but perfect tense... "you have stood and remain standing by faith," or something like that. IOW, it speaks of something which happened at a point-in-time in the past (it is not linear), but which has a state continuing into the present... a state of having stood by faith. It doesn't say that we continue to believe or that if we stop believing that we no longer stand. (The Young's literal has "...thou hast stood by faith...") Most translations emphasized the present state rather than the past action.

Paul's point is that we are in a position of standing in our position in Christ based on a point-in-time kind of action in the past (when we trusted in Christ) and that the effects remain in the present. It speaks of the security we have in Christ. Paul was warning thse Gentiles not to get proud, because the church was becoming mainly Gentile in nature, but that was based ONLY on their faith. If the Jews, as a nation - enmass - turned in faith to Christ, they would be grafted in.

Thx,

FA

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by Faith alone:

If it must be ongoing, then it must be something we do, apparently, which makes it works.

1. The bible does not define "Works" this way why should you?

2. What judgement do you use to draw the line at what is a "Work" or not?

3. When you speak of works that can't sustain us in Christ are you speaking about Christ commands and/or the Law of Moses?

I look at it like this: when someone trusts in Christ, he is re-born, he becomes a new creature - God does it.

1. Does God make a person a "New Creature" Without the individuals consent? Yes or No?


Grace and Peace