Faith Precedes Regeneration - Note What Spurgeon Said

[AustinC]

if one would actually look, they would see it is not very difficult

we are dead BECAUSE OF SIN - "the wage of sin is death"

which means, we can not be made alive until the sin issue is resolved.

The payment and forgiveness of sin, or answer to the sin problem is redemption. which leads to justification (A judicial term which means declaired righteous or innocent)

so justification MUST precede regeneration. Otherwise, you have a person who is dead because of sin, made alive IN SIN.

Wait!
Here it sounds like you are saying the entire human world is already justified because Jesus paid the substitutionary price for all. If that is true, then all humanity is declared righteous. This means no one need respond to the gospel message since all humanity is justified.
Do you realize you are teaching universalism?

 

[Van]

Sometimes it is necessary to lay out a whole concept in a long post or series of posts, but for rebuttal, I like to address particular points, for clarity.

Faith and Regeneration do not take place simultaneously, but sequentially. A lost individual places their faith in Christ, and then if God credits that existing faith as righteous faith, then God transfers the individual out of the domain of darkness into Christ's spiritual body. To be saved "through" faith means the faith existed before salvation because it was utilized in some manner by God choosing the individual for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When a person is transferred into Christ, the transfer unites the person with Christ, thus made alive, thus regenerated, thus having undergone the washing of regeneration.

 

[KenH]

I think everyone likes Spurgeon. "Prince of Preachers".

Not so. There are more than a few folks who do not like Spurgeon, especially over the glowing praise he had for John Wesley.

 

[KenH]

Here it sounds like you are saying the entire human world is already justified because Jesus paid the substitutionary price for all.

God's elect, not the whole world, were justified in eternity.

When_Are_Gods_People_Justified_in_His_Sight_new.pdf (b5z.net)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wait!
Here it sounds like you are saying the entire human world is already justified because Jesus paid the substitutionary price for all. If that is true, then all humanity is declared righteous. This means no one need respond to the gospel message since all humanity is justified.
Do you realize you are teaching universalism?

nope. this is not reading what was said, this is trying to make me say something I newer said.

Universalism is only applicable if everyone is justified.

The bible says we are justified by grace through faith. so universalism is ruled out..unless all the universe has faith, which is not true

 

[Martin Marprelate]

if one would actually look, they would see it is not very difficult

we are dead BECAUSE OF SIN - "the wage of sin is death"

which means, we can not be made alive until the sin issue is resolved.

The payment and forgiveness of sin, or answer to the sin problem is redemption. which leads to justification (A judicial term which means declaired righteous or innocent)

so justification MUST precede regeneration. Otherwise, you have a person who is dead because of sin, made alive IN SIN.

Luke 15:2. 'And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, "This Man receives sinners!"'

'Come ye weary, heavy-laden,
Bruised and broken by the Fall;
If you wait until you're better
You will never come at all;
Not the righteous, not the righteous -
Sinners Jesus came to call.'

'"Repent and be baptized, everyone of you," said Peter; as John Bunyan puts it - one man might have stood up in the crowd and said, "But I helped to hound Him to the cross!" "Repent and be baptized, every one of you." "But I drove the nails into His hands!" Saith one. "Repent and be baptized every one of you," says Peter. "But I pierced His side." "Every one of you." "And I put my tongue into my cheek and stared at His nakedness and said, 'If He be the Son of God, let Him come down from the cross!"' "Every one of you," said Peter; "Repent and be baptized every one of you."
I do feel so grieved at many of our Calvinistic brethren; they know nothing about Calvinism, I am sorry to say, for never was any man more caricatured by his professed followers. Many of them are afraid to preach from Peter's text ... When I do it, they say, "He is unsound," but I do not care for that; I know that the Lord has blessed my appeals to all sorts of sinners, and none shall stay me in giving free invitations as long as I find them in this book.'
[C.H. Spurgeon, MTP, vil 7, pp. 148-9]

 

[37818]

Faith and regeneration take place simultaneously.

Not necessarily. Romans 10:13-15, Ephesians 1:12-14, John 1:11-13.

 

[AustinC]

The Bible states this:
*Ephesians 2:1-10*
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are saved by grace alone. We are justified by faith alone. All that has happened is prepared beforehand by God alone.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Bible states this:
*Ephesians 2:1-10*
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are saved by grace alone. We are justified by faith alone. All that has happened is prepared beforehand by God alone.

you are wrong. we are nto saved by grace alone. The very passage you posted proves you wrong.

for by GRACE you have been saved THROUGH faith

there is no grace alone in that passage.. funny how you attacked me as universalist. when here you are teaching universalism..

 

[KenH]

you are wrong. we are nto saved by grace alone.

So you are claiming that God alone does not do the saving, that man has a part in saving himself, since you claim that salvation is not by grace alone? If so, then you are claiming that all of the glory is not God's alone; you are claiming that man can take credit to an extent in his salvation. You are claiming that you give God only full credit for providing a chance at salvation, and that's all.

 

[Brightfame52]

EG

so justification MUST precede regeneration.

Agreed as well as Faith, that is Justification before God precedes both regeneration and faith, for the promise is the Just/Justified shall live by Faith.

 

[37818]

Without faith one cannot obtained God's saving grace. Ehpesians 1:12-14, ". . . Christ . . . In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. . . ."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you are claiming that God alone does not do the saving, that man has a part in saving himself, since you claim that salvation is not by grace alone? If so, then you are claiming that all of the glory is not God's alone; you are claiming that man can take credit to an extent in his salvation. You are claiming that you give God only full credit for providing a chance at salvation, and that's all.

man has no part.

the only thing man can do is place his or her faith in the person who can save them.

God will not force you to take his gift.

we are saved by Grace THROUGH faith

you can;t remove faith from the equation

 

[KenH]

man has no part.

the only thing man can do is place his or her faith in the person who can save them.

You made two contradictory statements:

1) "man has no part".

2) "the only thing man can do".


So which are you saying, and there are only three choices:

1) Salvation is all of God(based totally on what God has done and continues to do).

2) Salvation is all of man(based totally on what man does and/or thinks at some point in time during his life).

3) Salvation is a cooperative effort of God and man(based partly on what God has done and continues to do AND partly on what man does and/or thinks at some point in time during his life).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You made two contradictory statements:

1) "man has no part".

2) "the only thing man can do".


So which are you saying, and there are only three choices:

1) Salvation is all of God(based totally on what God has done and continues to do).

2) Salvation is all of man(based totally on what man does and/or thinks at some point in time during his life).

3) Salvation is a cooperative effort of God and man(based partly on what God has done and continues to do AND partly on what man does and/or thinks at some point in time during his life).

Man has no part. he can not SAVE HIMSELF

God came to save him.

The only thing man can do is REJECT him, in which case, he has condemned himself.

He who believes is not condemned,

he who does not believe is condemned already

The means of being born again is through faith in him..
'

 

[KenH]

@Eternally Grateful

Do you acknowledge that you made two contradictory statements? They are:

1) "man has no part".

2) "the only thing man can do".

 

[AustinC]

Without faith one cannot obtained God's saving grace. Ehpesians 1:12-14, ". . . Christ . . . In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. . . ."

I have bolded your merit based gospel statement that is contrary to grace.
Look at the whole of the passage which tells you that it is all God, doing exactly what He has willed, since before the foundation of the world. You are not doing anything. God is doing it and you are effected by what He is doing.

*Ephesians 1:3-14*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful

Do you acknowledge that you made two contradictory statements? They are:

1) "man has no part".

2) "the only thing man can do".

no,

because man can not save himself. if he could, he would be saved by works

man can only receive in faith the work of God which saved him. which is not a work.. he basically says yes God. or no God

That's not having a part, or working for ones salvation.

 

[KenH]

no

Yet, you did make two contradictory statements. Are you claiming that you have perfect faith so that you have perfect righteousness? No one is saved without a perfect righteousness. God's elect have Christ's perfect righteousness imputed(credited) to them.

"God reckons the believing person as having done all righteousness, though he has not done any, and though his faith is not righteousness. The work of Christ for us is the object of faith; the Spirit’s work in us is that which produces this faith: Without the touch of the rod the water would not have gushed forth; yet it was the rock and not the rod, that contained the water. ...

Faith is not perfection. Yet only by perfection can we be saved; either our own or another’s. That which is imperfect cannot justify, and an imperfect faith could not in any sense be a righteousness. If it is to justify, it must be perfect. It must be like “the Lamb, without blemish and without spot” . God has asked and provided a perfect righteousness; He nowhere asks nor expects a perfect faith. An earthenware pitcher can convey water to a traveller’s thirsty lips as well as one of gold; nay, a broken vessel, even if there be but “a sherd to take water from the pit” (Isa 30:14), will suffice."

- Horatius Bonar, "God Does Not Count Faith as the Righteousness"

- rest at God Does Not Count Faith as the Righteousness, by Horatius Bonar | For the Elect Alone (wordpress.com)

 

[AustinC]

no,

because man can not save himself. if he could, he would be saved by works

man can only receive in faith the work of God which saved him. which is not a work.. he basically says yes God. or no God

That's not having a part, or working for ones salvation.

Your comments glorify man's ability to merit God's salvation. You have man being the one who determines salvation rather than God. You place God below man. You make God man's personal genie who only acts according to man's choices.