Faith prior to being saved, Romans 10:13-15.

[37818]

I know this may be seem to be an insignificant difference, but the question is not whether faith precedes salvation. The question is whether faith precede justification. Salvation is a sum total of all its individual parts. The Mongeristic Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation), is Election, Atonement, Outward (Gospel) Call, Inward Call (Regeneration), Faith (Repentance), Justification and Sanctification, and Glorification. All of these individual parts make up salvation. The point at which a person becomes declared righteous in the sight of God is justification (Galatians 2:16), and that is accomplished through faith.

Galatians 2:16, ". . .Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. . . ."
That reads like one's faith in Christ precedes receiving the justification we obtain by the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[37818]

If we agree on that, its settled, one is saved, born again before they can hear spiritually and believe.

LOL, no. Unless one hears the gospel one cannot believe in order to be born again. John 1:12-13, receiving Christ involves belief and then God does the new birth per His will.

 

[37818]

I have no problem with Gal 3:26 nor Eph 2:8

Both place faith prior to being saved.

 

[37818]

There are two issues. The one is the topic of this thread.
The second is that only those God calls "from God" and His "Sheep" hear and receive the gospel. John 8:47, John 10:26-28. This second issue is the basis, I think, for the belief regeneration precedes faith. My understanding is those who do hear, believe and then are born again are before hearing so deem to be of God by God. God gives eveyone faith, Psalms 19:4, Romans 10:17-18.

 

[Brightfame52]

LOL, no. Unless one hears the gospel one cannot believe in order to be born again. John 1:12-13, receiving Christ involves belief and then God does the new birth per His will.

If one isnt born of God they cant spiritually hear Gods word, hence no faith since faith cometh by hearing !

 

[Brightfame52]

Both place faith prior to being saved.

Only in your imagination !

 

[Reformed]

Galatians 2:16, ". . .Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. . . ."
That reads like one's faith in Christ precedes receiving the justification we obtain by the faith of Jesus Christ.

That is what I said. Faith (belief) precedes justification. This the classic Reformed view.

 

[Silverhair]

I know this may be seem to be an insignificant difference, but the question is not whether faith precedes salvation. The question is whether faith precede justification. Salvation is a sum total of all its individual parts. The Mongeristic Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation), is Election, Atonement, Outward (Gospel) Call, Inward Call (Regeneration), Faith (Repentance), Justification and Sanctification, and Glorification. All of these individual parts make up salvation. The point at which a person becomes declared righteous in the sight of God is justification (Galatians 2:16), and that is accomplished through faith.

I differ with you on your Odro. You have atonement before they hear the gospel, so you have God forgiving those who have not even heard the gospel. Then you have regeneration before faith, so you have someone born again before they believe. As for election I would say that God knows who will trust in Christ Jesus not that He picks them out.

That is what I said. Faith (belief) precedes justification. This the classic Reformed view.

Yes I agree Faith is required to be justified but the ordo that you set out is in error.

How does your theology deal with the problems that I pointed out
"You have atonement before they hear the gospel, so you have God forgiving those who have not even heard the gospel. Then you have regeneration before faith, so you have someone born again before they believe. As for election I would say that God knows who will trust in Christ Jesus not that He picks them out."

Do you not see a problem with this?

 

[37818]

If one isnt born of God they cant spiritually hear Gods word, hence no faith since faith cometh by hearing !

Your the one denying faith is prior to salvation.
The one cannot believe a gospel not heard. Hearing comes indeed before faith. Romans 1:16 is exlicit, ". . . of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ." Faith being prior to salvation!

 

[37818]

Only in your imagination !

No. You are making a false accusation here. I am not making anything up.
Ephesians 2:8, ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; . . ." and Galatians 3:26, ". . . For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. . . ." explicitly the faith is prior. "Through faith" and "by faith" being the very same Greek! ". . . δια της πιστεως . . . ."

 

[Silverhair]

If one isnt born of God they cant spiritually hear Gods word, hence no faith since faith cometh by hearing !

Having read a number of your posts I have to admit you have a twisted logic. You will twist any verse to fit with your view. Context and or English grammar do not come into consideration for you.

 

[Reformed]

I differ with you on your Odro. You have atonement before they hear the gospel, so you have God forgiving those who have not even heard the gospel. Then you have regeneration before faith, so you have someone born again before they believe. As for election I would say that God knows who will trust in Christ Jesus not that He picks them out.



Yes I agree Faith is required to be justified but the ordo that you set out is in error.

How does your theology deal with the problems that I pointed out
"You have atonement before they hear the gospel, so you have God forgiving those who have not even heard the gospel. Then you have regeneration before faith, so you have someone born again before they believe. As for election I would say that God knows who will trust in Christ Jesus not that He picks them out."

Do you not see a problem with this?

The reason that atonement comes after election, but before faith (belief) in the Reformed Ordo Salutis, is because the sinner is incapable of responding to the Gospel call while spiritually darkened. The sinner is spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1) an incapable of belief without the intervening work of the Holy Spirit. I do not expect you to agree with this. I am just offering explanation.

Good day.

 

[Silverhair]

The reason that atonement comes after election, but before faith (belief) in the Reformed Ordo Salutis, is because the sinner is incapable of responding to the Gospel call while spiritually darkened. The sinner is spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1) an incapable of belief without the intervening work of the Holy Spirit. I do not expect you to agree with this. I am just offering explanation.

Good day.

I agree we do indeed need the intervening work of the Holy Spirit {Jn 16:8-11} another name for His work is prevenient grace. Although the Holy Spirit convicts all men, not all will respond but all are able.

You say that man can not respond to the Gospel when He is
spiritually dead, but that is just when he must respond because we are all spiritually dead unless we are saved through faith. We are told to seek after God {Luk 11:9} and also {Mat 6:33}.

We see in Eph 1:13 the we hear the gospel, we believe/respond to the gospel and then we are saved, but we are sinners when we hear and first trust it is only in response/because off our faith that God seals us as children of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your the one denying faith is prior to salvation.
The one cannot believe a gospel not heard. Hearing comes indeed before faith. Romans 1:16 is exlicit, ". . . of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ." Faith being prior to salvation!

You must be born of God to hear spiritually Gods word, Jesus said so Himself Jn 8:47. So there's no Faith without first being born of God !

 

[Brightfame52]

Having read a number of your posts I have to admit you have a twisted logic. You will twist any verse to fit with your view. Context and or English grammar do not come into consideration for you.

Nothing is twisted, Jesus says its the ones of God that hear the word of God, He means spiritual hearing friend.

 

[Silverhair]

Nothing is twisted, Jesus says its the ones of God that hear the word of God, He means spiritual hearing friend.

You add the word spiritual but we see that we are to hear the gospel. This is just your adding to the scriptures.

If it was only the ones of God that hear the word of God then none would ever be saved as none would be able to hear the words. You have just shown that your logic is flawed.

In Jn 8:47 Jesus is just telling them that they would have been able to understand and believe Him if they really trusted in God. Look at
Jn 8:42 If God were your Father, you would love Me and
Jn 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
It is not lack of spiritual hearing, it is just not liking the import of Jesus words that they are not even acting like good Jews.

 

[MB]

So apples don't need a tree to grow?

Ah! but a tree requires a seed be planted first. The Bible is the seed for Salvation. it's fruit is the faith it freely gives to anyone who reads or listens to it being read..
MB

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 330 am EDT (Sun) / 1230 am PS DT (Sun)

 

[Brightfame52]

You add the word spiritual but we see that we are to hear the gospel. This is just your adding to the scriptures.

If it was only the ones of God that hear the word of God then none would ever be saved as none would be able to hear the words. You have just shown that your logic is flawed.

In Jn 8:47 Jesus is just telling them that they would have been able to understand and believe Him if they really trusted in God. Look at
Jn 8:42 If God were your Father, you would love Me and
Jn 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
It is not lack of spiritual hearing, it is just not liking the import of Jesus words that they are not even acting like good Jews.

Of course spiritual hearing is meant. He said its those of God who hear, thats a given ! Unless one is born of the Spirit they cant hear spiritually !

And He told them in Jn 8:43 they cannot hear spiritually His word

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Sure they heard it naturally, but thats useless , profits nothing

 

[1689Dave]

Ah! but a tree requires a seed be planted first. The Bible is the seed for Salvation. it's fruit is the faith it freely gives to anyone who reads or listens to it being read..
MB

This is not true. Elect infants go to heaven. Also those beyond the reach of the gospel. The gospel saves through sanctification to those born-agains who hear and believe.