Faith vs Faith and Repentance

[37818]

How does this Spiritually "dead" person make
their Spiritually dead soul, " be acted on".

What does the dead soul have that "do any acting" that is "Spiritually ALIVE"?

They raise themselves from the DEAD?

Nonsense. Extra Biblical jargon.

 

[Alan Gross]

Nonsense. Extra Biblical jargon.

that's what I thought...

 

[37818]

that's what I thought...

There is an on going problem of treminology and concepts. Once any of us go beyond the plain meanings of words and agreed concepts we can and often do have disagreements. Add to that different theologies.
You, I am sure knew what you ment. Ephesians 2:1?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How does this Spiritually "dead" person make
their Spiritually dead soul, " be acted on".

What does the dead soul have that "do any acting" that is "Spiritually ALIVE"?

They raise themselves from the DEAD?

your trying to relate a dead person who can do NOTHING, with a spiritually dead person who can chose right from wrong. who can know they deserve judgment, and who can hear the calling of God and act on it.

a dead person can not make himself alive. But he must place his faith in the one who CAN make him spiritually alive. otherwise, he will remain dead.

 

[AustinC]

my friend. You need to study the whole bible. not just eph 2. and eph 2 does not support your fatalistic view.

for it is BY GRACE we HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH.

that is WHEN we are made alive.

salvation includes

redemption
Justification
regeneration

one is NOT MADE LIVE while still under the penalty of sin.. You can spon it however you want, it is impossible. God does not. will not and can not go against his justice and his character..

he does not make us alive IN SIN (as your proposing) but he makes us alive BECAUSE sin is justified.

Grace saves. (God alone saves you)
Faith is the gift God gave you by which you would actually believe God alone saved you.
Justification is by God alone when God gave you faith to believe you are graciously saved.

Why you fight against God being your all in all is something I cannot grasp, except to recognize that we humans still have this self-centered fleshly body of corruption that still desires to tear God off the throne despite the fact that God chose to save our dead in trespasses and sins spirit.

Honestly,your position comes across as hating God for having the audacity to save you without your consent in the matter. That's just crazy to me that you would express that against the one who ransomed your soul from hell.

And yes, one is saved while still being dead. Just as Lazerus was utterly dead until Jesus said "Lazerus come forth." We cannot make ourselves do something that we have no capacity to do.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Grace saves. (God alone saves you)
Faith is the gift God gave you by which you would actually believe God alone saved you.
Justification is by God alone when God gave you faith to believe you are graciously saved.

Why you fight against God being your all in all is something I cannot grasp, except to recognize that we humans still have this self-centered fleshly body of corruption that still desires to tear God off the throne despite the fact that God chose to save our dead in trespasses and sins spirit.

Honestly,your position comes across as hating God for having the audacity to save you without your consent in the matter. That's just crazy to me that you would express that against the one who ransomed your soul from hell.

And yes, one is saved while still being dead. Just as Lazerus was utterly dead until Jesus said "Lazerus come forth." We cannot make ourselves do something that we have no capacity to do.

eph 2: 8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1. Through dia through, because, on account of
2. Grace through faith. in other words. grace can be applied. but if there is no faith, there is no salvation.
3. It is through faith period

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

In both ephesians and romans paul makes it clear. it is of grace, but grace is applied through faith,

oh and PS. The tax collector got on his knees and cried out? Why? because he desired salvation, which is beneficial to himself..

I am not the one who hates God. I am not the one who says God is a respector of persons.. and makes people alive still dead in sin.

 

[AustinC]

eph 2: 8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1. Through dia through, because, on account of
2. Grace through faith. in other words. grace can be applied. but if there is no faith, there is no salvation.
3. It is through faith period

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

In both ephesians and romans paul makes it clear. it is of grace, but grace is applied through faith,

oh and PS. The tax collector got on his knees and cried out? Why? because he desired salvation, which is beneficial to himself..

I am not the one who hates God. I am not the one who says God is a respector of persons.. and makes people alive still dead in sin.

By your interpretation man saves himself by his own power apart from God. You utterly cast down the verses that go before this in Paul's teaching and you utterly ignore the entire letter Paul wrote to the Ephesians.
*Ephesians 2:1-22*
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

It is to your shame that you deny God's authority while lifting up your own will as greater than God's.
You make faith your savior and deny Christ as the only one capable of saving you.

 

[Alan Gross]

There is an on going problem of treminology and concepts. Once any of us go beyond the plain meanings of words and agreed concepts we can and often do have disagreements. Add to that different theologies.
You, I am sure knew what you ment. Ephesians 2:1?

Right, and just because I think I know that people can't grow,
to learn more about God, until they grasp a solid hold on Total Depravity,
doesn't mean that I can expect them
to go ahead and grasp it if that was the case.

It'd be like trying to Teach Silverdead,
by comparing Spiritual things with Spiritual.

Something is missing big time.

Total Depravity.

I believe the sinner is dead in tresspasses and sins
and can't "act", unless "acted on", by God, first.

"You hath he quickened who were dead."

I mention Silverdead because he's said,
"dead" = "alive" IF THEY WANT TO BE.

Sorry. That's not in the Record.

"You hath he quickened who were dead."

Table of Contents:

Chapter 1 - Introduction

Chapter 2 - Origin

Chapter 3 - Imputation

Chapter 4 - Consequences

Chapter 5 - Transmission

Chapter 6 - Nature

Chapter 7 - Impact

Chapter 8 - Enormity

Chapter 9 - Extent

Chapter 10 - Ramifications

Chapter 11 - Evidences

Chapter 12 - Corollaries

Chapter 13 - Remedy

Chapter 14 - Summary

 

[Alan Gross]

By your interpretation man saves himself by his own power apart from God. You utterly cast down the verses that go before this in Paul's teaching and you utterly ignore the entire letter Paul wrote to the Ephesians.
*Ephesians 2:1-22*
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

It is to your shame that you deny God's authority while lifting up your own will as greater than God's.
You make faith your savior and deny Christ as the only one capable of saving you.

"Being our own savior" is not recommended.

It is to your shame that you deny God's authority while lifting up your own will as greater than God's.
You make faith your savior and deny Christ as the only one capable of saving you.

 

[Alan Gross]

faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

...

and that not of yourselves; ...., lest anyone should boast.

You probably need to stop boasting of your works.


...

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Abraham was Spoken to, by The Lord,
and placed his Faith in The OBJECT of SALVATION,
The PERSON of JESUS CHRIST.

And that Faith was Given to him, as a mechanism of Grace,
not to 'cause' Grace.

oh and PS. The tax collector got on his knees and cried out? Why? because he desired salvation, which is beneficial to himself..

Right, the jailer was being Dealt with by The Effectual Working of God.

Just like Zacchaeus, Abraham and every other Saved soul.

All Saved souls are Saved the Same ONE WAY.

And just because I think I know that people can't grow,
to learn more about God, until they grasp a solid hold on Total Depravity,
doesn't mean that I can expect them
to go ahead and grasp it if that was the case.

It'd be like trying to Teach Silverdead,
by comparing Spiritual things with Spiritual.

Something is missing big time.

Total Depravity.

I believe the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins
and can't "act", unless "acted on", by God, first.

"You hath he quickened who were dead."

...

and makes people alive still dead in sin.

This is a soul "RESURRECTION", (not lifestyle)
when God Does what He Says He did,
"You hath he quickened who were dead."

 

[Silverhair]

We know that you don't read all of Romans, but instead you pluck sentences you think make your point since context is meaningless to you. The same goes for Ephesians or any book in the Bible for that matter. If you read and understood the whole argument of Paul's in his letter to the Romans you would see your error and change your view. But, you refuse to read the entire word of God in the whole, thus you have created a false gospel that promotes man above God.
We will have no agreement with one another.

So good to see that you have insight to everyone else on the board. That you do not agree with scripture is your problem. If you think those verse references are wrong show us where the problem is. You complain a great deal but that is all you do. You say you read the bible but you obviously have not understood it. Christians are to strive to be Christ like and you fall way short of that. You are more like a Pharisee than a Christian.

 

[Alan Gross]

a spiritually dead person who can chose right from wrong.

Lazerus was utterly dead until Jesus said "Lazerus come forth."

These two contradict each other.

 

[Silverhair]

Wait, What!?
Apparently Ephesians 2 is a passage you will not read.
*Ephesians 2 : 4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

The Bible openly refutes your assertion.

You seem to just skip these verses and require faith before grace, which is not taught in Ephesians 2. You want justification before salvation, which is never taught anywhere in the Bible. You want human effort to be equal to God's ransom, which is never taught anywhere in scripture.
You want human action to be the cause agent of salvation and God's reaction to be the effect. You have it entirely backwards as you try to tear God off the throne and replace God with man on the throne.

Keep reading Austin, remember as you like to tell everybody context matters. [Ephesians 2:8] For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. Apparently Ephesians 2 is a passage you do not read. You seem to be very selective in what you like and do not like.

 

[Silverhair]

How does this Spiritually "dead" person make
their Spiritually dead soul, " be acted on".

What does the dead soul have that "do any acting" that is "Spiritually ALIVE"?

They raise themselves from the DEAD?

Hear the gospel believe the gospel or do you think those are not necessary to salvation?

 

[Silverhair]

These two contradict each other.

Perhaps you should read Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—

And shock surprise Christ did not call Lazarus from the grave to salvation, but to show His authority over death. But that would never stop a calvinist from using the text out of context would it.

 

[Silverhair]

Grace saves. (God alone saves you)
Faith is the gift God gave you by which you would actually believe God alone saved you.
Justification is by God alone when God gave you faith to believe you are graciously saved.

Why you fight against God being your all in all is something I cannot grasp, except to recognize that we humans still have this self-centered fleshly body of corruption that still desires to tear God off the throne despite the fact that God chose to save our dead in trespasses and sins spirit.

Honestly,your position comes across as hating God for having the audacity to save you without your consent in the matter. That's just crazy to me that you would express that against the one who ransomed your soul from hell.

And yes, one is saved while still being dead. Just as Lazerus was utterly dead until Jesus said "Lazerus come forth." We cannot make ourselves do something that we have no capacity to do.

So those texts that tell us we must believe and confess faith in Christ Jesus before we are saved are wrong? What kind of bible do you have?
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Are those verses not in your bible?

 

[AustinC]

So those texts that tell us we must believe and confess faith in Christ Jesus before we are saved are wrong? What kind of bible do you have?
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Are those verses not in your bible?

We understand them in light of Jesus words in John 6, John 10, and John 17. We also see them in light of Acts 2:37-39.

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Notice how God uses his scalpel first to do the work. (cause)
Men repent and are baptized. (effect)
This is true for everyone God calls. (cause)

Sliverhair, you are shown, over and over again in scripture how God causes those He calls to be saved, yet you ignore it everytime and demand that humans do it all themselves apart from God. You tell us that God cannot...until man does.

You are wrong.

 

[Alan Gross]

We understand them in light of Jesus words in John 6, John 10, and John 17. We also see them in light of Acts 2:37-39.

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Notice how God uses his scalpel first to do the work. (cause)
Men repent and are baptized. (effect)
This is true for everyone God calls. (cause)

Sliverhair, you are shown, over and over again in scripture how God causes those He calls to be saved, yet you ignore it everytime and demand that humans do it all themselves apart from God. You tell us that God cannot...until man does.

You are wrong.

Note: Decisionism: without God, or REGENERATION.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

By your interpretation man saves himself by his own power apart from God. You utterly cast down the verses that go before this in Paul's teaching and you utterly ignore the entire letter Paul wrote to the Ephesians.
*Ephesians 2:1-22*
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

It is to your shame that you deny God's authority while lifting up your own will as greater than God's.
You make faith your savior and deny Christ as the only one capable of saving you.

My friend, this thinking that I believe man saves himself. get it out of your brain. It is not true.

I can not save myself. I can not help myself. I have no power even to heal a small wound.. Only God can save me

Me trusting in God to save me is not me saving myself. if one thinks of that thought, it is quite foolish.. A person who does not help themselves. but in faith trusts the rescuer to save them, and just sits there all allows the rescuer to save them did not save himself. He can not boast of saving himself. he had no part in saving himself. he just let the rescuer do his job.

That is why it is of grace through faith..

a person who on the other hand does not sit still and lets the rescuer do his job. will perish. because they attempted to save themselves.. because he did not trust the rescuer. he trusted self.

My will is not greater than Gods. That's another nonsensical thought. I surrendered my will to Gods will. and stopped trying to save myself or deny I needed saved. and said yes to God. Thats all I did..

The tax collector did not save himself. he also did not lift himself up in greater will than Gods. He got on his knees unable to even look up. because he became poor in spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

...


You probably need to stop boasting of your works.

Please tell me, what work am I boasting of? What work did I do to pay for my sin debt, that redeemed myself of my sin?

Abraham was Spoken to, by The Lord,
and placed his Faith in The OBJECT of SALVATION,
The PERSON of JESUS CHRIST.

And that Faith was Given to him, as a mechanism of Grace,
not to 'cause' Grace.

Jesus was the CAUSE of Grace
Abraham just said yes. and believed in the work of Jesus and not in his own work.

And because he believed, he was accounted as righteous..

Right, the jailer was being Dealt with by The Effectual Working of God.

Just like Zacchaeus, Abraham and every other Saved soul.

All Saved souls are Saved the Same ONE WAY.

And just because I think I know that people can't grow,
to learn more about God, until they grasp a solid hold on Total Depravity,
doesn't mean that I can expect them
to go ahead and grasp it if that was the case.

Thats funny, Because Noah grasped it. So did Abraham, And David, And Daniel

for that fact, so did Adam, and my parents, and myself. God worked a great work. and we eventually understood that we were lost and without hope and jesus was the only way. .

It'd be like trying to Teach Silverdead,
by comparing Spiritual things with Spiritual.

Something is missing big time.

Total Depravity.

Total depravity means we can not do good

Trusting in God is not doing good. it is not even a work. It is trusting in someone elses work. As jesus said, it is the work of God we believe.

I believe the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins
and can't "act", unless "acted on", by God, first.

True God must act first

"You hath he quickened who were dead."

Your not quickened while still under the penalty of sin. The penalty of sin must be removed first.

as long as the penalty of sin remains, your dead

This is a soul "RESURRECTION", (not lifestyle)
when God Does what He Says He did,
"You hath he quickened who were dead."

Through justification. by Grace through faith.

You have God saving a person who is still under the penalty of sin..