Faith? Where does it come from?

[TCassidy]

I guess this means you can pat yourself on the back because you made the free choice to come to Christ.

This is the question I have been asking for years and years. You are a lost man who attends an evangelistic church service with an equally lost neighbor.

You hear the same message. You are gloriously saved but your neighbor leaves lost.

What is the difference? Why did you believe but your neighbor did not?

So far nobody who denies Particular Redemption has been able to answer that question honestly. Many have woven intricate webs of rhetoric to try to hide the fact that they can't honestly answer the question, but so far nobody has given such an answer (and, of course, no Arminian can honestly answer the question without denying his Arminian "free will" and accepting Unconditional Election).

 

[TCassidy]

That God created man with a free will is illustrated throughout the Scriptures . . .

Then you go on to demonstrate that you don't understand what "free will" is.

"Free will" is not the ability to choose. We all have that. It is what we can choose that defines "free will."

"Free will" is the erroneous concept that the will of man is not fallen and is able to choose Godliness of its own accord.

The Arminian concept of "free will" denies that the will of unsaved man is not free, but is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

The Arminian concept of "free will" fails to understand Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." And 1 Corinthians 2:14 "Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

The will of man is bound. It is either bound by the law of sin and death or it is bound by the law of new life in Christ.

The will of fallen man is not free to do as he wills, but is only free to do that which is within his fallen moral nature. And that fallen moral nature places him at enmity against God.

The classic Arminian fails to comprehend the depth of his fallen nature, and the depth of his sin and how completely it has separated him from a Holy God. Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?"

 

[TCassidy]

I don't normally respond to DHK, mainly due to his demeanor, however I do believe I should respond to this mischaracterization of Particular Redemption.

The essence of the Great Commission is given here.

Yes. We all know that. To think we need such an explanation is more than just a bit pedantic, don't you think?

It is restated in every gospel and in the book of Acts.

Yes. We all know that, too. To think we need such an explanation is more than just a bit pedantic, don't you think?

It is a command to preach the gospel.

Yes. We also all know that. To think we need such an explanation is more than just a bit pedantic, don't you think?

The gospel is the central theme of the Bible, as Christ is the central person and point of the gospel. All of history centers around Christ.

We know. And that is our point. It is not about you. It is not about your faith. It is about Christ and His gift to us. Not a single person on here, who believes in Particular Redemption, denies that God uses means to reach out to the lost. And the primary means He uses is found in 1 Corinthians 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

So, DHK, I can't help to believe that all of your rhetoric is merely deflection to avoid dealing with the real issue. "What part of your 'free will' was so unaffected by the fall that it was good enough to come to Christ on its own accord?"

 

[percho]

This is the question I have been asking for years and years. You are a lost man who attends an evangelistic church service with an equally lost neighbor.

You hear the same message. You are gloriously saved but your neighbor leaves lost.

What is the difference? Why did you believe but your neighbor did not?

So far nobody who denies Particular Redemption has been able to answer that question honestly. Many have woven intricate webs of rhetoric to try to hide the fact that they can't honestly answer the question, but so far nobody has given such an answer (and, of course, no Arminian can honestly answer the question without denying his Arminian "free will" and accepting Unconditional Election).

No 1 example at least for me.

And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. Acts 22:9
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. Acts 9:7

Do you think any of them were, "saved," at this time? By saved I think I will say given the gift of the Holy Spirit within 3 days as was Saul.

Myself, I do not believe they were. I do not believe they were being called at that time. Per your scenario above would the following apply? Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:14 in this manner Jer. 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

 

[Craigbythesea]

And yet Paul wrote in Romans 6:6, 6:20, and 7:14 we were slaves to sin. We have never had a free will. Then John 8:32 states the truth will set you free. Our wills were never free. They are bound by their nature.

Did Paul believe and imply that we have no choice but to sin? Did any of the Biblical writers believe and imply that we have no choice but to sin? Are all of the instructions and admonitions in the Bible against sin nothing but vain verbiage? When Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “Go your way, and from now on do not sin again,” was He asking of her the impossible? No! Ultimately, the choice belongs to us because God created us with a free will and gave to us sufficient faith to obey Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Did Paul believe and imply that we have no choice but to sin? Did any of the Biblical writers believe and imply that we have no choice but to sin? Are all of the instructions and admonitions in the Bible against sin nothing but vain verbiage? When Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “Go your way, and from now on do not sin again,” was He asking of her the impossible? No! Ultimately, the choice belongs to us because God created us with a free will and gave to us sufficient faith to obey Him.

Can you go the rest of your life without sinning even one time?

 

[DHK]

No one says He forces salvation on any.

Does a person then choose of "his" own free will to believe with "his" faith on the Lord Jesus Christ?
Or is he "forced" to believe because because it is really God that is doing the believing for him?
Jesus said "according to YOUR faith, so be it."

 

[SovereignGrace]

Does a person then choose of "his" own free will to believe with "his" faith on the Lord Jesus Christ?

No one has free will. Non-sequitor, in my opinion.

Or is he "forced" to believe because because it is really God that is doing the believing for him?
Jesus said "according to YOUR faith, so be it."

Did Jesus force Himself upon four days dead Lazarus? Did Jesus force Himself upon the widow's son lying in the bier?

 

[Craigbythesea]

You call that being free? That's called the fall, bondage of the will, enslavement to sin, a wicked heart, 'none good' and etc.

I am aware that some people have mistakenly extrapolated from the third chapter of Genesis the concept that man “fell” and lost his free will, and have wrongly interpreted some passages in the Bible based upon that mistaken extrapolation.

'We'?No my friend,YOUfind in the Bible only two instances...

Please feel free to post more examples if YOU can find them!

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am aware that some people have mistakenly extrapolated from the third chapter of Genesis the concept that man “fell” and lost his free will, and have wrongly interpreted some passages in the Bible based upon that mistaken extrapolation.



Please feel free to post more examples if YOU can find them!

How is 'Craigbythesea' able to post with 'banned' under his username? Or was he just banned?

 

[DHK]

I guess this means you can pat yourself on the back because you made the free choice to come to Christ. Certainly you would deny this, but you tenor makes it appear that you are boasting not only in the cross of Christ but also your ability to choose him. And this is what I find abhorrent about your view. You are taking the credit for your salvation... even in a small way. You can't give all the glory to God b/c you have held back some for yourself and the free choice you made.

Not at all. Salvation is all of God. It is his free gift to man to be accepted by faith. It seems to me that there are those here that despise the concept of faith so much so that they are willing to deny it. Abraham was justified by faith! Whose faith? It was his faith in God. The Bible is perfectly clear in that.

Look at Scripture, though it is doubtful that even scripture will convince one's mind already made up not to change.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
--Abel's faith; Abel's gifts.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
--Enoch's faith; Enoch pleased God.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
--Abraham's faith

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
--Sara's faith.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
--Moses' faith.
Note, when he was come to years he chose. He refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter.
He chose to identify himself with the Hebrews. He chose to suffer affliction with the people of God.
By faith, Moses freely made these choices.
When God called him to lead Israel out of Egypt, he argued with God. Five times he said no to God. He gave excuses. He was not "forced". God did not place "faith" in him to believe he could do it, as you would have us to believe. God reasoned with him. Pleaded with him. Encouraged him. Ultimately it was the choice of Moses. And he only did so because Aaron went with him.

The heroes of the faith. Whose faith. It was their faith in God. God did not believe for them. That is Calvinism, not Biblicism.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am aware that some people have mistakenly extrapolated from the third chapter of Genesis the concept that man “fell” and lost his free will, and have wrongly interpreted some passages in the Bible based upon that mistaken extrapolation.



Please feel free to post more examples if YOU can find them!

Romans 6:6, 6:20, and 7:14 Paul stated we were slaves to sin. Slaves are not free. Jesus stated in John 8:31-32 the truth shall make you free. You can not free someone who is already free.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Then you go on to demonstrate that you don't understand what "free will" is.

"Free will" is not the ability to choose. We all have that. It is what we can choose that defines "free will."

"Free will" is the erroneous concept that the will of man is not fallen and is able to choose Godliness of its own accord.

The Arminian concept of "free will" denies that the will of unsaved man is not free, but is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

The Arminian concept of "free will" fails to understand Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." And 1 Corinthians 2:14 "Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

The will of man is bound. It is either bound by the law of sin and death or it is bound by the law of new life in Christ.

The will of fallen man is not free to do as he wills, but is only free to do that which is within his fallen moral nature. And that fallen moral nature places him at enmity against God.

The classic Arminian fails to comprehend the depth of his fallen nature, and the depth of his sin and how completely it has separated him from a Holy God. Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?"

I do not make the false dichotomy between freedom to choose whether to sin and freedom to choose eternal life or death. Moreover, I do not deny the role of God’s grace or the faith that He instills in the hearts of men that chose Him.

 

[DHK]

So, DHK, I can't help to believe that all of your rhetoric is merely deflection to avoid dealing with the real issue. "What part of your 'free will' was so unaffected by the fall that it was good enough to come to Christ on its own accord?"

I didn't come to Christ on my own. Neither did God give me the faith to believe.
Two young men shared with me the gospel in such a way that I was able to understand what the gospel was. I had never heard that message in the Catholic Church. Now having heard the gospel, the Word of God, that is where faith came from.
Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God. Was I now confident that this message was true, applicable to me, and would indeed give to me, a sinner before God, eternal life and forgive my sin?
I don't discount the working of the Holy Spirit as per John 16:8-11.
I trusted Christ that night. As the Bible says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved," so did I. Why is it so presumptuous on the part of Calvinists to force me to say that if I am saved my faith had to come from God? Is that not arrogance based on a former theology. I don't believe that. I trusted him. He saved me. The work is not mine but his, on the cross of Calvary. I received through faith what he did by grace on the Cross. Salvation is a gift, the gift of God to be received by faith.

 

[DHK]

No one has free will. Non-sequitor, in my opinion.

And in this debate that opinion is highly disputed as it has been throughout the ages.

Did Jesus force Himself upon four days dead Lazarus? Did Jesus force Himself upon the widow's son lying in the bier?

Both of these are non sequitors, as they are both tremendous miracles that attest to the deity of Christ.
Christ was not attesting or demonstrating Calvin's precepts, rather his own deity.

 

[kyredneck]

How is 'Craigbythesea' able to post with 'banned' under his username? Or was he just banned?

Was wondering the same, and no, he's posted since this post of your's.

 

[InTheLight]

How is 'Craigbythesea' able to post with 'banned' under his username? Or was he just banned?

Apparently was banned back in March 2006. Since the re-design of the website I assume there has been an amnesty and all previous members have the ability to post. The "banned" status has not been changed by the site's new owner. Just a theory.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Not at all. Salvation is all of God. It is his free gift to man to be accepted by faith. It seems to me that there are those here that despise the concept of faith so much so that they are willing to deny it. Abraham was justified by faith! Whose faith? It was his faith in God. The Bible is perfectly clear in that.

Look at Scripture, though it is doubtful that even scripture will convince one's mind already made up not to change.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
--Abel's faith; Abel's gifts.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
--Enoch's faith; Enoch pleased God.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
--Abraham's faith

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
--Sara's faith.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
--Moses' faith.
Note, when he was come to years he chose. He refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter.
He chose to identify himself with the Hebrews. He chose to suffer affliction with the people of God.
By faith, Moses freely made these choices.
When God called him to lead Israel out of Egypt, he argued with God. Five times he said no to God. He gave excuses. He was not "forced". God did not place "faith" in him to believe he could do it, as you would have us to believe. God reasoned with him. Pleaded with him. Encouraged him. Ultimately it was the choice of Moses. And he only did so because Aaron went with him.

The heroes of the faith. Whose faith. It was their faith in God. God did not believe for them. That is Calvinism, not Biblicism.

God does not believe for them. They, being dead in transgressions and sins can not believe. Once divine quickening takes place, they believe, now having Spiritual life, and an ability to exercise faith and repentance.

“Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,.and you will delight in the richestof fare. Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David."[Isaiah 55:1-3]

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent Me has eternal life(already has life to hear) and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live."[John 5:24-25]

"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."[John 20:31]

 

[DHK]

I do not make the false dichotomy between freedom to choose whether to sin and freedom to choose eternal life or death. Moreover, I do not deny the role of God’s grace or the faith that He instills in the hearts of men that chose Him.

Even if you could or do choose eternal life it is questionable if you know what "eternal life" is since you believe "eternal life" can be lost, therefore not being "eternal" in its nature. You hold to a number of very questionable and confused doctrines:

http://www.baptistboard.com/threads...nal-salvation-security.1861/page-4#post-37716

 

[SovereignGrace]

And in this debate that opinion is highly disputed as it has been throughout the ages.

I am willing to admit that after greater than 1,800 years of debating, we're not gonna settle this all by ourselves.

Both of these are non sequitors, as they are both tremendous miracles that attest to the deity of Christ.
Christ was not attesting or demonstrating Calvin's precepts, rather his own deity.

I disagree with you. I know, color you shocked, right? These miracles are examples of what Christ did naturally by raising them from physical death, He does Spiritually the same way. The spirit in man is spiritually dead unable to respond. He quickens them and they have life now to exercise faith and repentance.